Transmuting physical pain & health + accessing inner guidance & unconditional freedom

[00:00:00] Zane: it's really all about learning to be with what is exactly as it is, and that's like the transcendent neutrality.

[00:00:12] Because even if there's anger, even if there's fear, even if there's pain, we can be even neutral to that. Um, and even if we kind of fall into a trap of, of plugging into it for a while- Mm-hmm ... at any point it's like that kind of presence can turn on and you catch yourself and you're like- Yeah. Yeah ... "Oh, I was fueling this."

[00:00:35] Like, I was contracting

[00:00:36] around

[00:00:37] this."

[00:00:37] Ivy: All the time.

[00:00:38] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:00:39] Zane: Yeah, yeah.

[00:00:39] Ivy: Yeah. Yeah, you know, when that's happening- I- it's wonderful, exact- uh, for example, pain is arising- Mm-hmm ... or, or, or I'm suddenly attached to the pain body as Tolle as- calls it.

[00:00:56] Zane: Yeah, right.

[00:00:57] Ivy: And I know, oh, that again. Okay, okay. Le- let it happen.

[00:01:03] Yeah. And it's painful, and I'm looking at it how it's painful, and I just let it. And, um, I find that that's the way for me at least-

[00:01:19] Zane: Yeah …

[00:01:19] Ivy: for this body, mind-

[00:01:22] Zane: Yeah …

[00:01:23] Ivy: to let it because, um, as soon as I let it, it goes away faster, let's say.

[00:01:34] Zane: Exactly, yeah. But-

[00:01:36] Ivy: So-

[00:01:37] Zane: Oh, sorry.

[00:01:38] Ivy: Yeah, yeah. There, there is a trap, uh, yeah-

[00:01:40] The,

[00:01:41] the-

[00:01:41] to cling to it too- Yeah ... mm, long. Yeah, I know.

[00:01:45] Zane: Yeah. Yeah, we can kind of be letting go from a place of like, "Okay, here comes the pain. I don't like the pain-" Yeah. "... so let me let go." Yeah, yeah. And then that will get rid of the pain. But you don't see there that there's still, like, a level of, like, agenda and kind of, like-

[00:02:01] Ivy: Yeah

[00:02:02] Zane: basically resisting the pain. And to whatever degree- Yeah ... that we're doing that-

[00:02:05] Ivy: Mm ...

[00:02:06] Zane: that actually just holds it into place. That actually kind of just fuels it, uh, in a way.

[00:02:13] Ivy: And but, uh, uh, to be frank, I, uh, haven't yet found the way around it because, um, you know, uh, I m- I mean, I don't have any plan or agenda to face the pain or nothing.

[00:02:32] But, uh, when it ha- happens, uh, for me, uh, let's say it's worse to resist it. I'm aware of the resistance.

[00:02:44] Zane: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:45] Ivy: But for me, it's better to just ob- observe it- Yeah ... and feel it as much as I can.

[00:02:54] Zane: Yeah.

[00:02:54] Ivy: I don't, I am not been able yet to, mm, to neutralize it in a way- Even though I'm aware that is a, it is a hook, it is agenda, somehow, mm, there is no way around it, at least in this phase.

[00:03:21] Mm-hmm. Right. I don't know how to explain it.

[00:03:25] Zane: Yeah. Well, uh, the, the neutrality, it doesn't always immediately, um- Take away the, the, the, the pain. Exactly. Like kind of the, the example that I've heard just in like normal Advaita teachings is like, it's kind of the example of like the two arrows. It's like, like pain and suffering, it's like the first arrow is the pain itself, and then the second arrow is the resistance to the pain.

[00:03:59] Hmm. And this is like the removal of the second arrow, but not always necessarily the first. But then the key, the key insight there is though, is by removing that second arrow and being with the pain exactly as it is, when you're in the isness or you're in the upper two koshas, that's where you have access to your inner guidance system- Hmm

[00:04:24] which works on the basis of your inspiration and your intuition, and that can guide you to any sort of actionable steps to alleviate the pain. Um, and kind of like a simple example of that would be, say you're very hungry. Hmm. The answer to that problem would not be to just sit still and be the neutrality until the hunger is neutralized.

[00:04:51] The, the, the answer to that problem, it would involve the neutrality and the isness, but it would be to be the neutrality and the isness to the hunger, and then to follow your inspiration and your intuition in terms of any steps that you can take to alleviate that. And that's how you would actually be guided to the best food in the best way, by following that kind of inner guidance.

[00:05:21] Whereas on the other end of it, if we're having the hunger come up, and we kind of react to it from like fear and, uh, like some type of insecurity, that's when it's like we may go looking for food, but we can never quite find the right thing, and then maybe we do find something, but it, it comes out burnt or they mess up the order or like something isn't right about it.

[00:05:43] It's like the more that we're kind of in the, the resistance and the fear and the contraction, we tend to be led to results which reflect that contraction. Yeah. But the more that we're in that non-resistance and we're just following the inspiration and the intuition and the expansion, we tend to be led to results which reflect that, those higher qualities as well.

[00:06:10] Ivy: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:10] Zane: Does that kind of make sense?

[00:06:12] Ivy: Yeah, yeah, totally.

[00:06:14] D-

[00:06:14] I'm, I'm just thinking about m- the situation where I've been led, for example, to breathe.

[00:06:24] Zane: Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:25] Ivy: Yeah.

[00:06:25] Zane: Yeah. Just something simple like that.

[00:06:27] Ivy: Yeah, just- Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:28] Zane: Yeah.

[00:06:30] Ivy: And that was the guidance, inner guidance, and yeah, that happened normally spontaneously.

[00:06:38] Zane: Exactly, yeah. And it can be- Yeah ... it can be anything. I mean, it can be just breathing. It can be something as simple as just going for a walk. Mm-hmm. Or it could be something like Going and like doing some type of, um, anything. It could be being led to some sort of like natural remedy or some sort of... It could be-

[00:07:02] Mm

[00:07:03] even something like this. It could be being led to reach out to someone that might be able to give you some type of like insight or guidance, or it could be being led to a useful video that feels inspiring and then out of nowhere- Mm ... it says something that is like exactly what you're looking for. Like, it can be...

[00:07:20] The guidance can come in absolutely any direction. But in order to access that guidance, we have to be with that subtleness. 'Cause the guidance, it comes very subtly. It's like the infinite being, it, it's kind of silly, but I've said before, like, like the demiurge or the devil, that it yells. But the infinite being whispers.

[00:07:41] Like, the infinite being- ... is very, very subtle. Like, the infinite being never like- Yeah,

[00:07:46] Ivy: totally …

[00:07:47] Zane: gets in your face and says, "This is what you need to do." Mm.

[00:07:49] Ivy: Mm. The,

[00:07:50] Zane: the lower mind will do that. The demiurge loves to do that. But the infinite- Mm ... being and like the higher things, they're very, very subtle. It's very kind of just, it's very light.

[00:08:02] And they're like that because that's, that's what they are. It's very... The, the higher frequencies are very subtle, so they don't, they're not very loud and commanding. They're very kind of just-

[00:08:15] Ivy: Mm-hmm …

[00:08:16] Zane: they kind of come through very quietly in a way. But the more that we stay with that subtleness, the more conscious we can be of that kind of subtle guidance to where it doesn't seem so kind of distant or faint, but it can actually be like very, very palpable and clear- Mm

[00:08:38] if that kind of makes sense.

[00:08:41] Ivy: Um, and do you think that that refinement for higher frequencies require refinement of the body, or is it not necessary? For example, is it necessary to eat clear food as much as possible? Or it may be some bodies require grounding and eating heavier foods, for example.

[00:09:18] Zane: Yeah.

[00:09:19] Yeah, well, it, it, it can definitely be a factor. Um, but I would say- Mm ... I would say- The importance, it, the, the, the most important is the more subtle. And so what I mean by that is the most important is the mental and emotional. Mm, okay. Because you can refine those regardless of the physical. But then kind of the whole thing is, is the more that you refine the mental and emotional- Yeah

[00:09:51] that's what will unlock more and more guidance in terms of what to do with the physical. Okay. It's kind of like the more higher [00:10:00] frequency- Mm ... you are in the mental and emotional, that's often- Mm ... when you'll have some type of little idea or insight come in of like, "Oh, what if I ate this food?" Or, "What if I went for a walk?"

[00:10:11] Or, "What if I tried this?" And then that ends up being, like, the perfect physical thing to kind of, like, like alleviate whatever problem that we're having.

[00:10:23] Ivy: Ah. Uh, I, I'm just asking this because, uh, I had opposite direction. Yeah. Because, uh, I, uh, had, let's say, idea or re- a realization, oh, but now I can eat whatever I want.

[00:10:43] Right. Yeah. Because I mean- It's not affecting. I don't know why it came, but, uh, it had sense because you are everything. You are the effortless being. And, um- How, how should I say this? No hamburger will change that. Yeah. Well- But I don't know. Um, somehow, uh, you know, uh, mind over matter, that's the thing that was coming

[00:11:24] Zane: Well, and that's very true because the thing

[00:11:26] Ivy: is that- Mind in the sense of consciousness, not the-

[00:11:30] Zane: Yeah, yeah

[00:11:31] Ivy: my mind with a

[00:11:33] Zane: mind. Yeah. But, well, and that is very true. It's like-

[00:11:41] The, the, the higher frequencies you are in the mental and emotional, even the physical things that aren't so healthy, they affect you much, much less. Like, you can even see that with, um, there's, like, very advanced Indian yogis and things who they can, like, drink poison and be pretty much- Yeah, yeah

[00:12:00] unaffected by it. And it's because they're in such a high state in their mental and emotional, and they're so grounded in the upper two Koshas that they can get away with those kinds of things. And that's the key. It's like if you are gonna eat, like, some candy or something, you're much better off just doing it from a place of enjoyment and, like- Yes

[00:12:20] like inspiration.

[00:12:21] Ivy: That's

[00:12:21] what I, I was going for.

[00:12:23] Zane: But there, there, there is still a factor of, like, it would probably be a little bit-

[00:12:29] Ivy: No

[00:12:29] Zane: ... easier on your body of, like, it's like you could either drink poison and eat candy all day and be non-resistant to that, or you could eat vegetables and healthiness and be non-resistant to that.

[00:12:42] Yeah,

[00:12:42] Ivy: unfortunately.

[00:12:48] Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Makes sense.

[00:12:56] Zane: Yeah ... and there's, there's a balance too. I mean, sometimes, like, I mean, I love to eat, like, ice cream and stuff. I mean, sometimes eating ice cream can be very nourishing for the soul. Yeah. Like, it could be, it could be fantastic. So much. But it can also turn into a thing where we're kind of just eating it compulsively or kind of- Indulging

[00:13:16] Ivy: it.

[00:13:16] Yeah,

[00:13:16] Zane: yeah,

[00:13:16] Ivy: yeah …

[00:13:17] Zane: or, or there can, there can, there can be a trap of relying on physical things as a means of regulating the system. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. And that can be a big trap because that's when we're, we're coming at it totally backwards. It's like we're trying to- Mm ... regulate things from the physical level, and that, that's when we just get addicted to things or we just, we feel that we're kind of stuck with certain, like, habits or things.

[00:13:42] Like- Mm.

[00:13:43] Ivy: Mm …

[00:13:43] Zane: it's like when someone takes up, like, a drug addiction or something, that happens because at first that works very well for regulating them, but then it, it, eventually that doesn't work so well. It kind of becomes like an external crutch, and then we're using it compulsively, and then that's when it creates the bad results.

[00:14:03] Mm. But it's totally fine to indulge in things sometimes, like, if it just feels inspiring and expansive. Yeah. And if you are gonna do it, you may as well enjoy it. Like, that's one thing I've heard David-

[00:14:15] Ivy: Yeah. That's

[00:14:16] Zane: it ... yeah, that's one thing I've heard David say that I really like is he says kind of the best way to quit an addiction is to just give yourself permission to enjoy it all the way.

[00:14:28] Because, uh, 'cause a lot of times it's the, the, the resistance or the guilt about the addiction which actually fuels the addiction. It's kind of like the shame- Mm ... like blame and shame cycle of like-

[00:14:43] Yeah ...

[00:14:43] we do the addiction and it, we feel good, but then we feel guilty about it, and we feel bad, and then we try to cover that up by doing the addiction again.

[00:14:52] Yeah. And then that's like a repetitive loop. But sometimes when we can just give ourselves permission to just enjoy it without judgment, that's like when sometimes, say, like the alcoholic or something may go to drink some, and then because they're just in that very light and subtle space and not resisting anything, that's when a lot of times, like, a new creative inspiring idea may come in of something like, "You know what?

[00:15:19] I don't even like drinking that much." Yeah. Yeah. Like, "This isn't even that fun." And then that's when they can kinda quit from a place of expansion and effortlessness rather than it coming from, like, force and, like, shame- Mm ... and, like, like, very high effort and that kind of

[00:15:36] Ivy: thing. Mm. Yeah.

[00:15:38] Zane: Yeah.

[00:15:39] Ivy: Totally.

[00:15:41] Zane: Yeah.

[00:15:44] Ivy: It's brilliant how it is. Yeah It

[00:15:49] Zane: w- and it's all inverted. It's, David's totally right- Yeah ... with the inverted thing. You can see how everything- Yeah,

[00:15:55] Ivy: everything ... is like,

[00:15:55] Zane: it's just, it's flipped. It's like-

[00:15:58] Ivy: Yeah. You know, um, when you see it like that, um, it can be a really, a problem because anything you see in the world, oh my God, you know, mm, you know, when you see it, everything is fake in a sense.

[00:16:21] Mm-hmm. Culture is fabricated and everything is just fake. Yeah. Um, maybe, mm, uh, yeah, it's, sometimes hard to enjoy things, you know? Mm, for me, uh, I, I could, um, uh, binge watch, uh, TV shows and films. Yeah. Now I can't watch anything. Maybe Poirot, but when I feel especially inspired. But, um- I don't know. It's strange in that sense that, um, there is no desire to, mm, I don't know, to go to theater or something like that, you know?

[00:17:10] Yeah. Completely gone, you know?

[00:17:14] Zane: Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

[00:17:16] Ivy: Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I'm, mm, I'm just, uh, rambling. Um, I'm, I'm letting be, uh... It, it is sometimes depressing, you know? Yeah. Because you don't have interest in those things anymore.

[00:17:35] Zane: Yeah.

[00:17:35] Ivy: And, um, as I wrote you a comment some time ago, um, there isn't really anybody to speak about this stuff, you know?

[00:17:45] Zane: Yeah.

[00:17:46] Ivy: So yeah, that's, that's been a ride also that's been interesting for me. There is complete loss of interest.

[00:17:58] So yeah. Yeah. That's been the thing, yeah.

[00:18:03] Zane: Well, and it's totally okay to enjoy just like normal elements of culture and like movies and things if it's on the basis of inspiration.

[00:18:15] It's also totally okay- Yeah. ... to not have interest in those too. Like, if it just drops away, that's totally fine too. But I just say that because there can be a big trap in the lower mind, it tries to hijack literally everything. Yeah, everything. Yeah. It, it, it, it, so- I know. I know ... it, it, yeah, it'll even try to hijack-

[00:18:36] the spiritual insight, and it's constantly- Of course ... it goes back to that, that conditional nature and that like positioning. Like, it will try to take a position of like, "Oh, well, all of the normal stuff is fake, so I just shouldn't enjoy that." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like we don't even realize that we're just like spinning another web of like contraction and like limitation-

[00:18:58] Yeah

[00:18:59] of, um... And it can make for a very isolating experience if we start cutting ourselves off- Yes ... from all of that. Mm. But really, like the joy I found is like Still enjoying lots of elements of the human experience, but the difference is, is it, it comes from inspiration and joy rather than like, like fear and like avoidance.

[00:19:22] Like a l- a lot of times when we say like binge-watch a TV show, a lot of times it can come from a place of like, like procrastination or like trying to avoid something. Yeah. And that's when

[00:19:34] Ivy: it's- But that was comf- a comforting thing to do, you know? Exactly, yeah. And

[00:19:38] now

[00:19:39] for me, um, it is a place of avoidance.

[00:19:43] Zane: Okay,

[00:19:43] Ivy: yeah. Um, I, mm- Simply I'm not drawn to watch anything for a long time.

[00:19:55] Zane: Yeah.

[00:19:55] Ivy: And maybe the old habit comes and I [00:20:00] watch a few episodes of Poirot- Right ... my favorite.

[00:20:03] Zane: Yeah.

[00:20:06] Ivy: Yeah, but, uh, from a completely different point of view.

[00:20:11] Zane: Yeah.

[00:20:11] Ivy: You know?

[00:20:12] Zane: Yeah. Yeah, from just, like, inspiration and-

[00:20:15] Ivy: Yeah. Yeah

[00:20:19] Zane: So can I ask you, I mean, if you've seen...

[00:20:22] Oh, sorry. Were you gonna say something?

[00:20:23] Ivy: No, no, no, no, no, no. Go ahead.

[00:20:25] Zane: Yeah. If you've seen my videos, you've probably heard me talk about the isness a lot, right?

[00:20:31] Ivy: Mm.

[00:20:31] Zane: Like the, does, does that word kind of resonate with you? Like the, the isness?

[00:20:35] Ivy: Yeah.

[00:20:36] Zane: Yeah. No,

[00:20:36] Ivy: completely fine. I know-

[00:20:37] Zane: Yeah, yeah ...

[00:20:38] Ivy: exactly what you mean.

[00:20:40] Zane: Yeah. 'Cause isness is really just another word for effortless being or the upper two koshas. There's a lot of ways to describe it. Yeah. But the reason that I really like the word isness so much is that it makes that very, like, clear distinction that absolutely everything that is, is the isness, and that's, like, a very profound realization to have because that's what kind of unlocks this, like, unconditional freedom.

[00:21:14] Because when you realize that everything is the isness, that's how you're totally free from conditions, and what I mean by that is, like- From the perspective of isness, it doesn't really matter what's showing up. Even if there's fear or anger or a scary person, it's still all made of the isness. So it's like whether there's isness of expansion and love or isness of fear and anger, it's still the isness.

[00:21:53] And that's- Mm. It's like, like saying that you like isness of love and expansion, but you don't like isness of fear and anger. It's kind of like saying, "Well, I like wooden chairs, but I don't like wooden tables." But it's all wood, so what's it matter? Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:11] Ivy: Mm.

[00:22:12] Zane: And the, the key is, is when you see it in the context of wood, of the kind of primordial substance rather than the forms that the substance has been shaped into, you see that it can be reshaped into anything.

[00:22:27] Like, in the sense that if you're only looking at it in terms of chairs and tables, you're not gonna realize that the wooden table could be reshaped into a wooden chair. But when you see it from the perspective of isness, that's kind of like, as David says, that's like the switchboard of consciousness or like that's

[00:22:47] Like, I'll use the terms like, like alchemy, like alchemical agent or like transmutation. Like, when you see the, the anger and the, the contractions in the context of isness, that's what allows them to be reshaped to expansion and to love. But it's very paradoxical because it doesn't happen by trying to make that happen.

[00:23:14] Ivy: Mm, mm,

[00:23:14] Zane: mm. Because that hap- that's what ... It's like they say, like, what you resist persists. Yeah. Like, the kind of, the kind of key insight is there's a natural flow of energy. Like, energy actually effortlessly on its own tries to flow towards expansion. Like, even the fear or the anger or any type of contracted energy, it's actually trying to f- to flow towards expansion.

[00:23:40] It does that on its own. The only thing that prevents that from happening is the kind of subconscious and conscious tendencies of clamping down on it, of kind of like holding onto it and trying to change it. Um, but the more that we just meet the challenging energies as the isness and we kinda just remember like, well, it's all isness, so it doesn't really matter- Yeah

[00:24:04] if there's isness of anger or isness of love, in a funny way, that anger tends to transmute to more and more love or to more and more- Mm ... happiness and like, like fulfilling things. Does that kinda make sense?

[00:24:22] Ivy: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Yeah.

[00:24:22] Yeah. I'm not there always, but I know yeah

[00:24:29] Zane: Well, and it's like, 'cause really you are always the isness.

[00:24:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're just not always, we're just not always, um-

[00:24:37] Ivy: In, in, in the understanding of it-

[00:24:40] Zane: Yeah, and interesting- ... totally Yeah, 'cause really what it is, is it's really just being with what is exactly as it is without plugging into any additional contraction or any additional resistance. But even if there already is contraction, even if we've already been resisting the anger, it's like at any point we can just catch ourselves, and we can just be the isness even to that resistance of the contraction.

[00:25:14] And then that's what allows that resistance to start to spontaneously and effortlessly transmute and, and flow. And then more and more, the, the, the other contractions and things will start to transmute as well. But again, it's so paradoxical because from there we don't really mind whether it changes or not, and sometimes it doesn't change immediately.

[00:25:38] It's like if we have a really strongly ingrained pattern, the first time we meet it as the isness, it's not just gonna instantly go away.

[00:25:47] Ivy: Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:47] Zane: But, but as the isness, it's like we're kind of making peace with that energy. We're realizing that in the same way it doesn't matter whether it's a wooden chair or a wooden table, we kind of see that it doesn't matter if it's isness of contraction or isness of expansion.

[00:26:05] But that's what allows that contraction to start to effortlessly, on its own, flow to more and more subtleness and refinement and expansion.

[00:26:20] Ivy: Yeah.

[00:26:21] Zane: Yeah.

[00:26:34] Does that kind of land like with the, the example of the, the wooden chair and the wooden table or like the-

[00:26:39] Ivy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's all the same matter. Exactly, yeah.

[00:26:44] Zane: And I, I also like, I like the word isness over awareness because... And again, really isness and awareness are the same thing, but I like the word isness more because I find that a lot of people can get trapped in this thing of like, kind of like the thing of like witness consciousness or- Mm.

[00:27:04] Mm-hmm ... we'll kind of be doing this thing where we're saying like the awareness is one thing, and then the contraction is another thing, and then we're the witness which is aware of the contraction. But there's still like that subtle layer of like separation and like-

[00:27:21] Ivy: Yes,

[00:27:21] Zane: yes, yes ... basically like rejection.

[00:27:23] Like, there's a sense of like I, the awareness-

[00:27:26] Ivy: Separateness. Mm.

[00:27:27] Zane: Yeah. But the key is like, it's not like awareness is one thing and then the object is another thing. Awareness is what the object itself is made out of. Mm. Like it's, it's, it's... Awareness is like that base primordial substance. And again, it's like when you see it like that, for one that- that's true non-duality, 'cause that's no separation.

[00:27:52] Even if there's separation, we realize that even the seeming separation is also made of the isness. It's also made of the awareness. But then also, that's how we can truly, truly be with those things from non-resistance. Because if we're- Trying to do it in a subtle place of like, okay, I'm gonna be the awareness and I'm gonna be the witness and I'm gonna witness this contraction.

[00:28:21] We don't always realize that on like a nonverbal level, we're kind of like, there's this layer of separation. There's this layer of like, this energy is not okay. Awareness is okay. And so I am the awareness, but I'm not the contraction.

[00:28:41] Ivy: And there is effort to it also.

[00:28:43] Zane: Exactly.

[00:28:44] Ivy: And we're-

[00:28:45] Zane: Because

[00:28:45] Ivy: you are, you're- You're

[00:28:47] Zane: trying to like-

[00:28:48] Ivy: Yeah, trying to distinguish. Okay, this is it. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So true. Yeah

[00:29:05] Zane: And it's, and

[00:29:06] Ivy: it's…

[00:29:07] Zane: Oh, sorry, go ahead

[00:29:08] Ivy: No, no, sorry, go ahead. No, finish it

[00:29:11] Zane: Uh, uh, and it just goes back to that conditional thing. It's, it's just attaching more conditional qualities to it. It's like the awareness is the good condition, and then the contraction is the bad condition. And then But we don't realize that, like, on a pre-verbal level, we're just plugging into this energetic, like, resistance and effort, which just holds the whole thing in place.

[00:29:35] It just kind of prevents that, that refinement and flow from happening

[00:29:46] Ivy: Yeah. Yeah

[00:29:55] That makes sense. Yes

[00:29:58] Zane: And the, [00:30:00] the, the kind of the pre-verbal nature of the energy, that's a, a key insight to see too, because so many non-dual teachers, I mean, pretty much all of them, even David kind of does this in his own way. They kind of spew this thing of like "It's only the words." Like, they'll... Like, even David will kind of say, like, "It's the word I that creates personalization."

[00:30:28] Mm. Like, they'll kind of make it seem like it's the words that are the problem. But when you really look at it, it's obviously not the words that are the problem. Like, if you're having some type of contraction- ... whether you say I or you don't say I, that's not what is doing it. That's like, the words are not, like-

[00:30:54] Ivy: That's true.

[00:30:56] Zane: Like, or it's like if we're feeling anger or something- ... if we just tell ourselves in the form of words- It's ... "I'm the infinite being who's immune to anger," that doesn't just fix the anger. No. It doesn't really.

[00:31:12] No, yeah.

[00:31:13] Or, or vice versa, too. Say we are in a really good state. Say right now if I just said, "I am super afraid and I feel horrible," that's not gonna make me super afraid and feel horrible.

[00:31:26] Like, the, the words are not what is doing it. Like- Oh, yeah. Yeah ... it's, it- it's, it's that pre-verbal- Mm ... energetic sense. But the key is- Mm ... I, I think, I think what those people that talk about the thoughts and the words, what's happening is they're cluing into something which is true, but then it's getting subtly distorted.

[00:31:47] Because the key is- Mm-hmm ... is that it is the mind which is the root of it. It is the mind- Mm-hmm ... which is creating the, the contractions and holding them into place, but it's not really the mind in the form of words. It's more like the mental energy which is prior to words. Mm. It's more like, like the, the, the subconscious resistance.

[00:32:10] It's like the, it's like the pre-verbal mental framing of the experience. Like, sometimes I'll use words like context or, like, perspective or, like, um, yeah, like, like mental framing to kind of describe that. And, like- Mm ... an example of that is, is it's like if there's anger coming up or something and we're kind of resisting that, we don't have to be telling ourselves in the form of words, "I'm resisting that"-

[00:32:40] in order for that. You

[00:32:42] Ivy: know, maybe that's the first stance in which you can point yourself in it. Yeah. So maybe, uh, maybe the teachers and so on, they, using the words- To describe the state and the differences in subtleness. Yeah. And yeah, there, there of course there can be distortions, of course. And, um, and we humans, we attach to the concepts.

[00:33:19] Uh-huh. Okay, the words. Yeah. Oh, yeah,

[00:33:23] Zane: yeah.

[00:33:23] Ivy: Yeah. Yeah, but that, that's not the point. But on the other hand, how can you point to that without words?

[00:33:32] Zane: Yeah.

[00:33:32] Ivy: So.

[00:33:33] Zane: Yeah.

[00:33:34] Ivy: Well,

[00:33:35] Zane: yeah. And it, it's, it's very difficult to talk about, so it's understandable- Yeah, yeah ... that it's kind of gotten clunked up. But it's like I said, that's kind of the advantage I have.

[00:33:44] I kind of feel like I'm standing on David's shoulders or something. Mm. Like, I'm kind of like, David already kind of laid this out very- Mm ... very, like, he, he has, like, an incredible framework for the whole thing. Mm. So it's kind of like the way I imagine it is, like, like David built the house. He built the whole thing, and then now it's like- Yeah

[00:34:03] we're kind of just walking around. And it's very easy- Mm-hmm ... to be like, "Okay, this screw right here is just- Mm-hmm ... a little out of place." Like, it's just like- Mm ... like, it's like saying like, "Well, it's not quite the words." It's actually- Mm-hmm ... it is still the mental kosha. Like the kosha system- Mm-hmm ... is incredible.

[00:34:18] Mm-hmm. But it's not just the words. It's more like, it's like the mental framing. It's like, like an example is like we could have a mental frame that anger is not okay, that the anger is counter to- Yeah, yeah ... effortless being, and so I need to get rid of the anger in order to be effortless being. Mm. But again, that's the inversion.

[00:34:40] It's actually the other way around. Yeah. The way that you transmute the anger is by being the isness or the effortless being even to the anger, even as it's arising. Mm. Just fully, fully allowing it, and again, knowing that it's all the isness. So it doesn't really matter- Mm ... whether there's isness of anger or isness of bliss.

[00:35:01] Ivy: But- And for me, that is the shadow integration, the popular term in- Yes ... popular culture. That's- Yeah ... exactly it.

[00:35:11] Zane: Yeah.

[00:35:11] Ivy: It, it, uh, I know it's a meme word, but yeah, that is shadow-

[00:35:20] Zane: Mm-hmm ...

[00:35:20] Ivy: integrating because everything is isness- Yeah ... in the shadow.

[00:35:26] Zane: Well, and, and really, what, what the shadow is, is the shadow is the elements of ourself which has been rejected, which has kind of been- Of

[00:35:35] Ivy: course.

[00:35:36] Zane: Mm ... like, and the way that we integrate those is by no longer rejecting them, which is just- Mm ... allowing them to be exactly as they are. Um- And then the shadow, the shadow's favorite thing to do is to fight with the shadow. So it's like- Yeah ... that's like the shadow's whole trap. That's kind of like-

[00:35:58] Ivy: Mm.

[00:35:59] Zane: It's why sometimes I, I'll talk about the symbolism of the snake with the tail in its mouth.

[00:36:06] Mm-hmm. That's exactly like what the shadow is. Because if you think about if you were a snake biting your own tail, basically the loop that you get stuck in is you bite your tail, and then it hurts, and then the hurt scares you, so you clamp down on the hurt, and then you bite it even harder. Mm. And then it hurts even more, and then you react to that.

[00:36:27] But then the snake never realizes that it doesn't need to keep biting and clamping down. It just needs to let go. Yeah. It just needs to allow the hurt to be exactly as it is. Mm. And then that's when effortlessly it's like the tail would start to withdraw from its mouth. And then as it starts to let go of the clamping down, then it, it gets, it gets out of that loop.

[00:36:51] That's like the loop of karma, the, the loop of samsara, the, the, the... That's like the rollercoaster of the shadow. And then as we step out of that loop, then the snake is free. Then the snake can go around and live a life of freedom and a life of joy.

[00:37:08] Ivy: Mm.

[00:37:09] Zane: But it can also fall back into a trap of biting its own tail, and that's what the shadow does.

[00:37:14] It's like the shadow, a shadow, a rejected element comes up. The shadow says, "Oh, this is not okay. This is not good. Clamp down on it. Push it away. Suppress it, or project it, or do something with it." But then we're just in that loop. We're just... Yeah.

[00:37:33] Ivy: Mm. Yeah.

[00:37:34] Zane: Yeah.

[00:37:39] Ivy: Yeah. Well, thank you so much

[00:37:44] Zane: No problem. Yeah, it's, you, you-

[00:37:46] Ivy: Um, I won't take any more of your time. Uh- Oh ... it was super fun and enjoyable to talk to you.

[00:37:58] Zane: You, you seem incredibly clear. Like, you seem, like, really, like, super clear, honestly. Ha- have

[00:38:06] Ivy: you- Yeah.

[00:38:07] Zane: Have you talked to David before?

[00:38:10] Ivy: Uh, no.

[00:38:11] Zane: Oh,

[00:38:11] Ivy: okay. No, in a conversation one-on-one, no.

[00:38:14] Zane: Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you seem super clear. Like, I could tell that you were kind of with me the whole way. Yeah. Which is honestly very rare. Like, most people can't really do that. Most people kind of, they're just not familiar with the subtleness of these things, so-

[00:38:30] Mm ...

[00:38:30] their mind will kind of just interject and prevent them from following, but Y- I mean, I don't, I don't know what you think of yourself, but you might be a lot more clear than you really realize.

[00:38:42] Like, that- Um, yeah,

[00:38:44] Ivy: yeah Th- I'm trying not to fall into the trap, you know

[00:38:50] Zane: Of, like, ego, like-

[00:38:51] Ivy: Yeah, yeah Yeah. But, but- Ego, holiness now, you know But- And now you're not, you know. But- So it's, uh, really great to have an opportunity to, uh, exchange the mirror.

[00:39:05] Zane: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:07] Ivy: Yeah. Yeah. It's-

[00:39:09] Zane: But-

[00:39:09] Ivy: It's really great. Thank you.

[00:39:12] Zane: No, no problem. And, and I would just say, like, that- that's one of the most common traps that I... And I was stuck in that for so long too, is it just goes back to how the lower mind tries to hijack everything. So the lower mind will even try to hijack our clarity, and, like, our wisdom, and our insight- Yeah. Mm

[00:39:30] into telling us, like, "No, you shouldn't be confident about that, because if you do that, that's ego." And so, like- Yeah. Yeah But the key is, is, like, there can be, there can be, like, confidence and, like, authority which comes from expansion and it comes from inspiration, and that's good. Mm-hmm. It's only bad to have confidence when it's coming from that kind of, like, fear-based, like- Yeah

[00:39:56] like that kind of way. But it's actually... [00:40:00] I mean, learning to have confidence with this- Yeah ... is one of the most important parts. That's kind of like, I love how David talks about, like, being self-referral. Like, he's always pointing people back to, like, trust yourself more than anyone else, because that's like, no one has more direct access to infinite nature in your experience than you, because you are that.

[00:40:22] And, like, and it's also nothing knows you better than you. Um, but in order to really be in touch with that self-referral and that sovereignty as much as possible, we do have to have the confidence to trust ourselves. We have to have- Mm ... we have to give ourselves the permission to hold some level of, like, authority and, like, confidence of, like, "Wait, maybe I am pretty clear.

[00:40:49] Maybe I do, like, understand a lot of this." And it was just a hijacking of like, "Oh, well, you shouldn't be too confident."

[00:41:00] Ivy: Yes. Mm.

[00:41:03] Zane: Yeah.

[00:41:05] Ivy: That's familiar,

[00:41:06] Zane: yeah.

[00:41:08] Ivy: Yeah. But

[00:41:10] Zane: yeah, I mean, you seem amazing. I love your energy. Like, you, you have a great, like- Thank

[00:41:14] Ivy: you.

[00:41:14] Zane: Yeah.

[00:41:16] Ivy: Yeah. Yeah, it's mutual recognition- Oh ... I would say. Thank

[00:41:22] Zane: you. Thank you.

[00:41:23] Ivy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:29] Zane: Um, was there, is there anything else that, anything else that came up

[00:41:33] Ivy: or- Oh, yes, plenty. I could stay for hours, but I won't bother you anymore. Well- Thank you so much for your time.

[00:41:42] Yeah. Yeah. But awesome. Right. Amazing. Thank you so much again, and, um, I hope you, to speak to you soon, but we'll see.

[00:41:54] Zane: Amazing. Yeah, it was so good to meet you. I, I love it. Great. I love the

[00:41:57] Ivy: energy. Nice to meet you too. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Thank you so much.

[00:42:03] Zane: No problem. Have a wonderful day.

[00:42:05] Ivy: You too.

[00:42:07] Zane: All right. Good to

[00:42:09] Ivy: see you. Good to see you. Bye.

[00:42:11] Zane: I'll see ya. Goodbye.

[00:42:14] Ivy: Bye.

[00:42:15] ​