The Causal Body, Adyashanti & Transcendent Alchemy, Spiritual Bypassing & Boundaries | W/ Donna M

[00:00:00] Donna: And you name the teacher, I've been with them. I would say Adyashanti was my main guy.

[00:00:06] Zane: Okay. Yeah.

[00:00:07] Donna: I did four retreats with him in, like, 2011, '12, '13.

[00:00:12] In that period I did the School for the Work with Byron Katie right before Adya. I went on retreat with Gangaji. I did not go to India. I'm amazed I didn't. Oh. But everything else, um- And have been coming along in the non-duality just inch by inch, it's... Zane, it's been really s- I, I was told that my nervous system couldn't handle it any faster than I was going, and I Hmm.

[00:00:40] Zane: Okay, yeah.

[00:00:41] Donna: Um, one teacher told me... I was gonna take this course that I wound up not taking. This... She said, uh, "Your chakras are spinning at the right speed for you, and if I put any energy in, it's gonna... it may knock you off, and you have a test coming and you've gotta take this test."

[00:01:00] Well, that, that, being rejected from that training almost totally knocked me off everything, 'cause I was like- Hmm ... "See, my chakras don't even spin right." I was into- Yes ... this whole poor little me thing.

[00:01:11] Zane: Yeah. The

[00:01:11] Donna: I'm not good enough, that whole thing. Anyway.

[00:01:14] Zane: Yeah.

[00:01:15] Donna: Now I know what she meant, and she was right. I wasn't ready.

[00:01:19] I had to wake up in that training and insight. Hmm. So I bless her, you know?

[00:01:23] Zane: Yeah.

[00:01:24] Donna: I bumped into David, um, couple of years ago.

[00:01:28] And I was like, whoa. I love David. And-

[00:01:34] Zane: Yeah.

[00:01:36] Donna: I, um, started listening to all his stuff, you know? Yeah. So it's like it's just been coming along into my, like, as I needed to. What fascinated me about David, you know, like it was almost nobody else on the call caught onto this, and I didn't ask him on the call, was he made reference to, uh, the demiurge.

[00:01:57] Zane: Mm. Yeah.

[00:01:58] Donna: And I was like, the way he said it, I was like, "What is that?" Because I had wondered. You know, I would have thoughts that I knew were not mine. I would have the strangest, weirdest things coming in, and I've always wondered about it. My husband has his own theories a- about stuff, you know- Yeah ... along those lines.

[00:02:19] Right. So when David kind of mentioned it in passing, he touched... You know how he touches on it very lightly sometimes, depending on-

[00:02:26] Zane: He's very

[00:02:26] subtle, yeah ...

[00:02:28] Donna: depending on the group he's with. So I sent an email to have a session with him.

[00:02:34] Zane: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:34] Donna: And he was, like, book- booking months out. And I think it was just a couple days later, Angela emailed me they'd had a cancellation.

[00:02:42] Was I available that day?

[00:02:44] Zane: Oh, wow.

[00:02:45] Donna: And I went, "Yes." Yeah. And he and I just laughed about the whole... He said, "It's, like, really amazing you were available." I said, "Yeah." So the reason I wanted to talk to him was about, I said, "Tell me..." You know, I, I'm on... I told him my enlightenment stories, my awakenings, and I said, "What I really wanna know is this demiurge thing."

[00:03:08] Mm. "Please let's talk about that." So we talked, and he wound up sending me the, the, a video, the gnos- on the Gnostic stuff with the Sophia- Yeah, I've seen that ... and all of it.

[00:03:16] Zane: Yeah.

[00:03:17] Donna: Then I went in the community, and that's when I've been bumping into you. Okay. And what inspired this call was, was it last week, whenever I emailed you

[00:03:26] Somebody mentioned your video, posted your video that you did on, um, bypassing, spiritual bypassing.

[00:03:34] Zane: Yeah.

[00:03:34] Donna: And I went and listened, and it just knocked my socks off. I understood what you were talking about, but some of the stuff you mentioned were just like, yes, yes, yes. And I wanted to talk to you about that and ask you. That- Yeah ... and that's how I got here.

[00:03:51] Zane: Well, great.

[00:03:52] Donna: So- Yeah ... thank you for that. Yeah. What I love so much, and not many people talk about it, I don't even think David does, but you did.

[00:04:02] I first heard it from Adyashanti, is about the, um, transcendental, the, the alchemy.

[00:04:12] Zane: Yeah.

[00:04:13] Donna: Alchemy-

[00:04:14] Zane: Yeah ...

[00:04:14] Donna: of the transcendental. And when you were talking about- Well, your definition of spiritual bypassing about, um

[00:04:27] When we, when we say we're processing things on the personal, that it wasn't that so much as if something keeps showing up

[00:04:34] Zane: Repeating patterns that

[00:04:35] Donna: You can be sure you've been repressing it. Yeah. And over the last several years, I've had one core thing that just, that I keep looking at and go, "I know I, I didn't think I was ever repressing it.

[00:04:50] I may not have been feeling it fully when it shows up." Mm-hmm. And that's what I wanted to talk to you about today.

[00:04:59] Zane: Yeah.

[00:04:59] Donna: Is this, um, is sitting with it as impersonal being- Yeah ... which I can do easily. I think I've been cutting it off I- because it's uncomfortable, maybe. Yeah. I wanted to talk about h- How do we really do that?

[00:05:20] How do we... And I know, I- it's not so much how, it's trusting

[00:05:25] Zane: Yeah

[00:05:28] Donna: Can you talk about that?

[00:05:30] Zane: Yeah. So, yeah, well, and so David actually does talk about the alchemy a little bit, but he does it in his own way, and he's so subtle that it's very, like, it's, it's very, like, subtle and simple. But the thing is, is that this stuff actually is very, very simple. Like, it's the mind that wants to kind of overcomplicate things and say, like, attach all these conditions to it.

[00:05:58] Um, the language that David will use to talk about that is he'll talk about, like, integration or the natural refinement process- Mm-hmm ... that happens, or sometimes he'll use the phrase transforming the nature of experience. That's really, it's transforming the experience from contraction, which would be like the repeating reaction patterns, to expansion or to unity.

[00:06:23] Um, but so the way that energy gets transmuted is... Do you, I'm assuming you feel that you're clear on self-realization, like you feel you've had self-realization. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Big time. Probably many times over.

[00:06:39] Donna: Yeah, and that's what I love when you talk about flow. I've had-

[00:06:42] Zane: Yeah ...

[00:06:42] Donna: months of flow.

[00:06:44] Zane: Yeah

[00:06:45] Donna: Synchronicities, all of that magic, and m- I feel like now...

[00:06:49] Like, I retired about seven years ago. I was a nurse. I was a, a labor and delivery nurse for a thousand years. I was also a Reiki master. I mean, I've had one foot in both worlds.

[00:07:00] Zane: Yeah

[00:07:00] Donna: Um, after that training and all of the evolution, it's been ongoing progression, just inch by inch by inch.

[00:07:09] Zane: Yeah

[00:07:10] Donna: I had all of that, and then since retirement, it's like, and I'm old, I'm 75, and, and it's this retirement thing, and you go, "Whoa."

[00:07:22] I heard somebody say the other day it's like the sand in the hourglass, there's more of it down here now than there had been.

[00:07:27] Zane: Oh, yeah, I've

[00:07:27] seen those. Yeah

[00:07:29] Donna: And you, and you go, "All right. Here we are." Like, I feel like, not that we're ever done- But there's this, I feel like this one core thing, it's time for this now

[00:07:44] Zane: Yeah

[00:07:44] Donna: and it's this inadequacy thing. It's- Yeah. Inadequacy? Is that- It's that experience, inadequacy. Okay, yeah. I've had this thing of women showing up over the last couple years, So I sit back and go, "Okay," like I've had this woman, this woman, this woman, now her. I've never had such hatred launched at me. Like, what's going on in here that this is all so...

[00:08:07] That's what I've been- Yeah ... looking at and sitting with-

[00:08:10] Zane: Yeah ...

[00:08:10] Donna: over the last-

[00:08:14] It's been a couple years now that I keep this so... Yeah, that's what it is. Well, so- And yes, to answer your question, sorry, yes

[00:08:22] Zane: Yeah.

[00:08:22] Donna: I- I can go right there, right there Yeah ... which is why I'm confused because it's like everything is usually so beautiful. My life is ama- I got married again in healthy relationship.

[00:08:33] We're both growing and learning together. You know, we have our things. Like you said, you've had your challenges. We still have challenges, and they, we learn-

[00:08:42] Zane: Yeah ...

[00:08:43] Donna: at, from them Yeah,

[00:08:44] Zane: exa- Yeah, life, life gives you what you need to, to grow- Exactly ... and to develop. It gives you- Exactly ... what you need. Yeah. But so the sense of, I mean, the sense of inadequacy or, like, insecurity or just, like, being, like, a bit avoidant or, like, that kind of thing, that's so common.

[00:09:02] Like, that's so common in these circles, and it's such a kind of cunning trap because it is like how David talks about the demiurge. A lot of times I'll use the phrase the lower mind, but it really means the same thing. It's this kind of lower nature that's hooked up to us, and it's constantly- It's hooked up to our own brain, and nothing knows you better than your own brain.

[00:09:26] Oh my

[00:09:26] Donna: God,

[00:09:26] Zane: yeah. So, and it, the, the lower mind or the demiurge, it fears the light. It doesn't understand the unconditional or the light or the expansion because it's in the contraction, and it's inherently conditional. It's inherently fear and lack-based. So it's, it will constantly try to hijack our insights and our wisdoms, um, in order to keep us stuck.

[00:09:52] So like a way that can play out for a lot of people who have, and like I struggled with this in my own ways, who have like certain insecurities or, [00:10:00] and feeling inadequate or like being avoidant, is it will hijack our wisdom that we have, like this kind of higher wisdom, and then it will use that as a kind of, like the bypassing that I talk about.

[00:10:13] Yes. Like it will use that to say things like, "Oh, you know, like this is about getting rid of the individual," or, "This is about being peaceful, so I should just never speak up," or, "I should never d- engage with this challenging thing." Like it's actually using our own wisdom against us.

[00:10:30] Donna: Exactly.

[00:10:31] Zane: Um, but the key thing to see is that non-duality is true no matter what's happening.

[00:10:40] Whether there's an individual, no individual, whether the individual's small, huge, existent or non-existent, it's still all fundamentally non-duality. Because that's why I like the word isness. Have you heard me use that a little?

[00:10:58] Donna: Oh, love

[00:10:58] that.

[00:10:59] Zane: Yeah.

[00:10:59] Donna: I love that.

[00:11:00] Zane: And isness really, it's another word for effortless being or consciousness, presence.

[00:11:06] Like there's lots of words. But I really like the word isness because it makes a very clear distinction that everything that is is made of the isness.

[00:11:17] Donna: Yeah.

[00:11:17] Zane: Everything, in order for anything to exist, it's made of the isness. And that's important to stay tuned into because the lower mind will constantly try to pin conditions to non-duality.

[00:11:31] Like it will try to say, you know, "Oh, you have to be in a higher state," or, "You have to get rid of the sense of self," or, "You have to have this happen." But the thing is, all of that is still fundamentally made of the isness. The isness is always there.

[00:11:48] Donna: Yeah.

[00:11:48] Zane: Um, and that's actually how the energy gets transformed or transmuted or integrated.

[00:12:00] All of those words really kind of mean the same thing. Mm-hmm. Because the way that you transmute energy or you transform the nature of the experience from Contraction and dualism to expansion or, or non-duality is by being the isness to contractions or, or to insecurities or fears as they arise. So what this looks like is, is like say you're going into some sort of challenging situation, like maybe something that kind of provokes that like inadequacy or something, and you'll, you know, you'll feel that like shot in the body, like that-

[00:12:42] Donna: Yep

[00:12:42] Zane: that nervousness or like clamping in the chest or something. Mm-hmm. So the key is

[00:12:50] You can meet that from the isness. Mm-hmm. Like, the lower mind will try to tell you that that's counter to non-duality. Like, it will try to say something like, "Oh, no, you need to get to the peaceful state, and then you're in non-duality, and then you feel better," or some- But it's actually the complete other way around.

[00:13:09] Because when you're labeling a problem with the inadequacy, or you're subtly resisting it or, or, or redirecting it, or basically labeling it a problem in some way, that actually plugs our energy into it, which keeps that reactionary cycle going.

[00:13:29] Donna: Right. Right. So As it's feeling it, it's just being aware of it

[00:13:40] Zane: It's-

[00:13:40] Donna: Neutrally.

[00:13:41] David would say neutrally

[00:13:43] Zane: Yes. It's, it's being the isness to it. And it's not... The key is, is not succumbing to that primal pre-verbal urge to resist it or redirect it. Because what will happen is when you feel that energy come up in your body, before you ex- even express it in words, there will be a There's a kind of like primal, like pre-verbal urge of like clamping down on it, and then it's after we clamp down on it or we subtly push it, that's when the mind comes in to try to manage the safety.

[00:14:20] That's when the mind comes in to try to create the story, whatever story we've adopted around that contracted energy. But-

[00:14:29] Donna: Well,

[00:14:29] you see what happens. I came out of the new age stuff of love and light, love and light, da, da, da, da, da, and everything.

[00:14:36] Zane: Yeah.

[00:14:36] Donna: And I've had to undo all ... I mean- Yeah ... I've been undoing stuff like my entire life.

[00:14:42] So that's why ... Now, Saturday night, I have ... This is not related to that core thing, but it was a, a weird interesting thing, and I wanted to even just ask you about it as was that an invitation or what the heck was that? I was in a group. It was a, a sp- a spiritual type group, but- Mm-hmm ... a non-duality group with, uh, this lady I've

[00:15:02] who's an amazing writer and all. And, um, she had been just talking about in this crazy time on the planet with everything- Yeah ... just ha- you know, just hang out. You know, just, just try to just good self-care and just try not to get, you know, hooked into all the stuff. So they, it started to ... And she started talking about, you know, don't forget, this is some kind of

[00:15:26] We don't know exactly what it is, some kind of virtual reality we're in or some kind of simulation, or some people talk about, you know, uh, this, the planet could even be a, um, generational ship and p- in the future we're watching. And, and I know all this. Yeah. I love science fiction. I've written science fiction.

[00:15:45] I'm very familiar. And I'm just sitting there listening, and I was fine, but my gut suddenly went into a knot, a total knot. Mm-hmm. And I've never ... I've had queasiness, nervousness. We all get that. This was new. This was to- ... And, and I, I wasn't having any thoughts. I was just listening to her. Yeah. And I was like fascinated.

[00:16:09] Like, I love this stuff. You know, like, yeah, what are we? You know? But my gut, I mean, it went into a total knot. So I s- I ... When it, it was my turn to like talk and I mentioned it, she was misunderstanding. She was trying to soothe me about, well, we don't know what it is. Mm-hmm. And y- you know, it's how the Hindus talk about this as Maya and all.

[00:16:31] And I'm like- Yeah ... yes, I know that. I'm just wondering ... And then I realized, never mind, we're not on the same page with this, so I'm telling you. Yeah. Like, was that like an invitation or was that just ... It was some kind of pre ... I, I don't know. It's, it was so innocuous and innocent what we were talking about, and something I love.

[00:16:52] Zane: Yeah. Well

[00:16:54] Donna: But the, the knot was like, and it wasn't a reaction to food, you know? It was just- Right ... it was 9:00 at night, which is much- Yeah ... later than I usually go on anything. She's in Australia, which is why it was 9:00 at night here.

[00:17:07] Zane: Yeah.

[00:17:09] Donna: Was that an invitation? Or, or was it just something that happened and who knows?

[00:17:14] Should not even ask- Yeah, 'cause you- ... the why.

[00:17:16] Zane: Well, yeah. I mean, it could be anything. It could be like, it could have been like an intuitive feeling of like not resonating with something there. Or it could have been, I mean, it could have been anything. It could have been some type of insecurity or like challenging energy getting- Yeah

[00:17:34] provoked. It could have been all kinds of things. But the thing that comes up for me is The whole idea of invitations, that itself can be a little bit of a hamster wheel where we're kind of constantly getting in this thing of deciphering like, is it an invitation? Yeah. Is it not an invitation? Like, like, and that's like, that can be a hijacking where the lower mind- Yep

[00:17:59] 'cause it, it takes those greatest insights that we have, and then it tries to turn that-

[00:18:05] Donna: Uses everything. Yeah.

[00:18:07] Zane: But real- the, the key thing to see about the word invitation is it really is just pointing to the optional nature of everything. Oh, yes Like the invitations Really, I mean, you could say even the good stuff is an invitation.

[00:18:27] You could say it's an invitation in, into good stuff. Um, but, like, an example of the contracted invitation would be, like, for example, when you go into some situation which provokes some nervousness or the anxiety. The invitation there is that split-second pre-verbal urge to react to the nervousness, to, like, resist the nervousness or to kind of fight it or something.

[00:18:58] But the way that you decline the invitation isn't by, like, fighting with the invitation or, like, saying, like, a firm no to it where we're resisting it. 'Cause if you're resisting or reacting to it, in a roundabout way that actually is accepting it- Yeah, yeah ... because you're reacting to it. And so y- that's why they say, like, what you resist persists.

[00:19:18] Like-

[00:19:18] Donna: Right ...

[00:19:19] Zane: by resisting it, you actually are accepting the invitation. But the way that you decline the invitations into contraction is by being the isness, being the effortless being or the awareness, whatever word resonates. It's, it's being the isness to what arises because that's, that's the transcendent layer.

[00:19:43] That's the causal layer. And- And

[00:19:46] Donna: do we just stay there till it... And that's the part, like, with that knot. I just... I s- that being that I had just listened, 'cause I listened to that YouTube of yours, like, over and over and over again.

[00:19:57] Zane: Yeah.

[00:19:58] Donna: So I just sat. I said, "Okay, never mind [00:20:00] why. I don't know why. Let's just sit with it, sit with the- Well-

[00:20:04] the why of it, the concern about it." I just sat with it, and eventually I felt it loosen.

[00:20:11] Zane: Yeah.

[00:20:12] Donna: And I knew 'cause I was going to bed. I couldn't go to bed with that knot. The- that wasn't... I wasn't gonna go to sleep. So that was a really... It was almost like, oh, here's an example. I don't know if that that... Anyway, so we just trust and stay with it as however long it needs to be stayed with.

[00:20:28] Is that it?

[00:20:30] Zane: Yeah. Well, so the lower mind, again, it will constantly try to pin conditions to the isness or, like, to the non-duality. So like, that's-

[00:20:39] Donna: I have a

[00:20:39] very sharp left brain. Can you- No ... You got that. You know, that's years of nursing.

[00:20:44] Zane: No. Well, and that's a, I mean, that's a gift. Like, you don't, like, that can actually be empowered by this.

[00:20:50] Um, but so, like, a lot of people that are into kind of like the spiritual, like, uh, emotional work kind of thing, that itself can be largely hijacked and turned into a positioning thing, where it's like we think like, "Oh, the contraction's arising, so I'm gonna sit here and be the awareness to the contraction until it ari- like, until it goes away or something."

[00:21:15] But the whole thing is is that everything is the isness. Everything is the awareness. And so from the isness, it's completely, totally, and utterly flexible. Like, if you feel some type of... For example, if you feel some type of Th- this may not apply, but you could apply it to anything. For example, if you have nervousness around public speaking, when you go to do public speaking and you feel that big nervousness and anxiety come up- Yeah

[00:21:47] the solution to that is not to just sit there and be awareness to it and not do the public speaking. If you do that, you can spend the rest of your life meditating without really- Yeah ... like in order to, to transmute the energies, you have to flow through the experiences associated with those energies from the isness.

[00:22:08] Yeah. So what that would look like is as you're going to do the public speaking or the activity which brings up those challenging energies, you feel that nervousness come up, but you can meet it from the isness. You can allow the nervousness to be exactly as it is.

[00:22:25] Donna: Yeah.

[00:22:25] Zane: And from the isness, you're not plugging into that belief that, you know, "Oh, I'm gonna be the isness so that I can get rid of the nervousness."

[00:22:34] It's not about getting rid of the nervousness, it's about realizing that the nervousness is also made of that isness. Everything is made of that isness. And so you can flow from there. Like in the public speaking, it's like you would then go and do the public speaking, but meeting it from the isness. And the more that you do that, that's when kind of very magically and spontaneously the nervousness does tend to lift.

[00:23:03] A lot of times that's when it settles. And because on a kind of simple scientific level, when we meet the challenging energies from the isness, that's how you signal to the body that those energies are safe. Whereas when you're clinging to a belief of like, "These energies are not okay, and so I need to be the awareness to get rid of them," and are just s- You, you're in this- Yeah

[00:23:27] hamster wheel of like, it's like a- Yeah ... it's basically like a very, very creative non-dual avoidance mechanism. Like it's- But it's,

[00:23:45] and

[00:23:47] it's But

[00:23:55] Donna: Oh, that's hysterical. It's, and

[00:23:58] Zane: it, it's very creative and it's very cunning 'cause when you start to get into these spiritual avoidance mechanisms, you can't even argue with them. There's no arguing with them. Like, there's no... 'Cause y- there's always gonna be another like, "Oh, well this is energy and I saw this sign that said this, and so I just shouldn't..."

[00:24:15] Like, there's always gonna be some higher story that gets tied to it. But that's why, I, that's why I really like the word isness. Isness and awareness are really the same thing because it's just referring to that, that ground of experience, that, that primordial ground out- Mm-hmm ... of which everything is made.

[00:24:38] Mm-hmm. But I think the slight problem with the awareness thing is a lot of people when they're doing the awareness thing or the, like, observing, they're still doing it from a slight level of separation. It's kind of like, "I'm the awareness."

[00:24:53] Donna: Yep.

[00:24:54] Zane: "And then here's the contraction."

[00:24:56] Donna: Yep.

[00:24:56] Zane: "And I, I, I the awareness am watching the contraction with a subtle desire of getting rid of the contraction or, or welcoming it or whatever it may be."

[00:25:07] But then- That's

[00:25:08] Donna: another s- yep. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh

[00:25:10] Zane: And to whatever degree that we're clinging to that separation, that keeps it,

[00:25:15] Donna: that- That is so beautiful bec- I had one talk with Adya at a retreat. Mm-hmm. My first retreat. He said something, he said that in the same, in a, just in different words, and it was we, I was talking to him about flow.

[00:25:30] Zane: Mm, yeah.

[00:25:30] Donna: And it was like, is flow just another delusion? Is it just another mechanism of the ego to, like another carrot? You know, and I said, it... And I don't know, he was talking a little bit about the ego to me, and then I said, "Okay, so we just allow." And he went

[00:25:54] Allowing isn't much, is it? Like, a s- step before allowing. And he snapped his fingers Uh-huh And I went, I just, the energy just hit me, and I just went, "Ah." And he said, "That's what I'm talking about." And someone- Yeah ... there was like 300 people in this room, and someone in the back of the room gasped, like at the same time- Wow

[00:26:16] I did. We both felt it. Yeah. He said, "That's what I'm talking about," 'cause there's no... He, what he was saying was it pulls you out of that dualistic separ- you know.

[00:26:25] Zane: Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:26] Donna: Take a step back from that.

[00:26:30] Zane: Yeah.

[00:26:30] Donna: So hearing it again- Yeah ... from you in those words, it's like, I just, yeah. Very simple, and it's so simple.

[00:26:42] It's The lower mind wants to- It's, it's... Y- and

[00:26:54] Oh. Got to, there's got to be something else. Mm. There's got to be something else that

[00:26:59] Zane: Yeah,

[00:26:59] Donna: it- It says.

[00:27:02] Zane: Uh, and the, the, the, the beautiful thing about the isness or the, like, the real awareness, which isn't like the dualistic awareness, but the awareness out of which everything is made, that's unconditional safety.

[00:27:19] Like, that's like, that's how you can be safe even to the sense of unsafety, and that's how you transmute the sense of unsafety or the sense of insecurity, and that's how you reintegrate the energies. Because what makes the energies disintegrated is just all of the energetic contraction around them. But as we meet the energetic contractions from the isness, that's how those...

[00:27:51] It's like you're signaling to the body that those energies are safe, they're okay.

[00:27:56] Donna: Yeah.

[00:27:56] Zane: Yeah. And then that's how the body starts to let go of them. But the key is, is from the isness, you're not labeling the challenging energy as a problem or, like, putting in a subtle effort to get rid of them. Because from the isness, even the sense of unsafety can be totally safe.

[00:28:17] Even the sense of- Yeah ... fear can be totally safe. Even the sense of anything can be totally safe because everything is made of that one primordial base- Yeah ... substance. It's all that. It's, it's- It's- There, there... And that's why they say that you never truly leave your true nature. Like, no matter what's arising, even fear is not counter to true nature because fear is also made of true nature.

[00:28:47] It's made of that isness.

[00:28:49] Donna: Yeah.

[00:28:49] Zane: There's nothing outside of the isness. There- There... And that's why also they call it, like, illusion. Like, it's like it seems real, but it's actually not. The, the real truth is the truth of what always is, and that's the isness. It's like no matter what's happening in a movie, no matter how much the movie character thinks that it's separate from the screen, or no matter what's happening, it's always the screen.

[00:29:20] The, the character is the screen. The thought that I'm not the screen, that's also the screen. The emotions are the screen. Everything is fundamentally made of that non-duality, of that, that isness. Does

[00:29:42] Donna: Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool

[00:29:46] And that's how, 'cause when you said, when we- and th- I've always bumped into this with a question mark that you can't go into this with the ... Well, you didn't say agenda. My brain translates- But no- ... into agenda ... I know.

[00:29:58] Zane: Yeah, same thing, like with a goal [00:30:00] of getting rid of it.

[00:30:00] Donna: Yeah.

[00:30:02] Zane: The ... Well, so the key is even if there is the sense of wanting to get rid of it, you can be the isness to that's-

[00:30:10] Donna: That.

[00:30:12] Zane: That's, like because if there, if we've plugged our energy into that, it's gonna show up, and then that's like the invitation. But the way that you decline that invitation isn't by like pushing it away or anything. It's just being the isness even to that.

[00:30:30] Donna: Yeah.

[00:30:31] Zane: Even the sense of it wanting to go away, you can be the isness even to that, and from there you're not creating even more energetic contraction by saying, "Well, I want the sense of it to go away.

[00:30:46] I want that sense to go away." Because when we're doing that, that's what creates those reactive loops. That's the plugging our energy into it which gives, it basically gives it that charge, that ammo for the next time that pattern comes up, and then we get hit with all of that energy. And then the tendency is to react to it and to try to do something with it, but then to whatever degree we do that, we're repeating the cycle.

[00:31:15] We're putting our energy into it.

[00:31:17] Donna: How do we ... See, I love that. And to me, that ... See, for many years I didn't even know I had awakened because we were all programmed back then that it was the big, like the Eckhart thing. Mm.

[00:31:33] Zane: Yeah.

[00:31:33] Donna: It had, it was this dropping of everything, that that was it or it wasn't.

[00:31:36] Zane: Yeah.

[00:31:37] Donna: So we've come a way out of that now.

[00:31:40] Zane: Yeah.

[00:31:41] Donna: So I know now, um, and have for years obviously, like what ... Anyway, but I still forget, you know? I still get caught. Like, I guess it's ... And I know, I don't even know why I'm asking you this 'cause it's an organic process, and I know that and it's like more and more and more I know, you know? It's like it's just organic.

[00:32:03] Yeah. It's just organic.

[00:32:05] Zane: Yeah.

[00:32:06] Donna: Here's a left brain question. Well- Oh, I'm sorry. Okay What were you gonna say?

[00:32:09] Zane: No, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.

[00:32:11] Donna: No, no, you were gonna say something. You remember? I was ju- I interrupted you. I'm sorry.

[00:32:15] Zane: No, I... Well, I was ju- I was just gonna continue with what you were saying. But go ahead with the left brain question.

[00:32:21] Let's, yeah.

[00:32:22] Donna: Oh, it's very easy. It- it's just, um, you were mentioning in that video about coming from the causal level, and it's just a term, and you also called it, uh, if I get it right, vipashna, I, something kosha. Is that out of the Hindu tradition, the causal? It's not one of the- Yeah

[00:32:37] koshas that David- No ... talks about. It is. I've heard it ref- oh, it is. Yeah. So well, the,

[00:32:47] Zane: the koshas can be a little confusing, but yeah, the, the causal body or vijñānamaya kosha, that also is the same as effortless being or- Right. That's what you said. Mm-hmm ... the body of wisdom or isness. The, the important distinction really between the koshas is just between the lower three and the upper two.

[00:33:12] The upper two are the non-dual ones, and those are like our higher nature. And then the lower three, that's the thoughts, emotions, and physical body and physical world. Um, but the, the causal layer, that's, that's where the root of samskaras or like karmic patterns are. So that's why a lot of therapies and things that only work within the confines of the lower three koshas, a lot of times they tend to not have that much like permanent transformation because they're kind of just juicing the energies or they're getting really good at- Yeah

[00:33:52] managing the energies, but they're not actually releasing the roots of those like reactive patterns. But the, the way that you release those, those root samskaras is by being the causal body to those patterns as they arise. So that's what the isness does. That's when-

[00:34:18] Like when you have like, say, the nervousness or whatever it may be come up, by being the isness to that, that's being the causal body to it, and that's what actually heals it or releases it or transforms it at the primordial level. Like, it doesn't just do it... It doesn't just kind of offload the symptoms or, like, soothe the symptoms.

[00:34:42] It actually heals it at its root. Yeah. It's getting at the, the base of it.

[00:34:47] Donna: That's, that's what that Insight training was, and that's what led me to MSIA and John-Roger, who was that guy. Yeah. 'Cause Insight, I was watching all the stuff going on in that training and I was like, "Who create- who is behind this training?"

[00:35:03] Because this guy's tuned into something. And, and I found out MSIA, J- JR already existed. He created Insight as the educational kind of for the world for the MSIA students that he was working with. And MSIA was sort of like Sufi... I mean, JR was enlightened or whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. Sufi, Hindu. It was sort of a mixed bag.

[00:35:27] Zane: Yeah.

[00:35:27] Donna: He brought that causal. He brought that isness- Yeah ... into Insight, and that's the- Yeah ... that was the power of that. I mean, it was ... that's why Insight was so powerful because of what you're saying with the isness present in that.

[00:35:45] Zane: Yeah.

[00:35:46] Donna: Wow. So that's what the c- the ca- the causal, 'cause, well, JR taught about all the... He didn't call them koshas, he just called them, you know, physical, mental, emotional, or physical, the astral, the physical, the astral, the causal And

[00:36:02] Zane: etheric or...

[00:36:03] Yeah ...

[00:36:04] Donna: etheric soul Yeah.

[00:36:05] Zane: Yeah

[00:36:06] Donna: And his whole thing was about soul transcendence

[00:36:09] Zane: Yeah. Yeah

[00:36:11] Donna: And that's... It was beautiful. You know, and I'm still loosely associated with the group just because it was so life-changing, and it's still... I'm pulling out the little pieces that JR did where he did refer to this as who we are.

[00:36:31] Zane: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:32] Donna: He sort of had to bring it down to a lower level for those who weren't ready for the non-dual. But the non-dual was there if you look for it.

[00:36:41] Zane: Exactly, yeah.

[00:36:44] Donna: Yeah. Amazing. Okay

[00:36:47] Zane: lot, lots and lots and lots of people have kind of seen this in their own way. Like, the, when you really see this, you see that this is the essence of all of the spiritual teachings.

[00:37:00] Like, it's really, like-

[00:37:02] Donna: It is ...

[00:37:02] Zane: th- this is the essence of it. Like, even, even Eckhart's The Power of Now, this is the power of now. Like, the isness is the now. Like, the isness is what always is. That's, the isness is always the now, and that's the alchemical power of presence or of, of isness, is-

[00:37:23] Donna: I love that.

[00:37:25] Zane: Yeah, that's, that's how you- Keep going. No, yeah, that's... I, and that, and there, there, there's two very important aspects of the isness. The, the first is the fact that, like we were talking about, the, the alchemical power of it, that that's that which transforms and transmutes energies, and that's how you actually get to higher states.

[00:37:49] Like, most of non-duality or spirituality, they have it flip-flopped. They have it inverse, where they think that you have to get to the higher states to be non-duality. But it's actually the other way around. The isness is always there, no matter what state the energy is in. It's always non-dual. But the, by being the isness to what's arising, that's what creates that vertical integration process where the energies become more refined or subtle or integrated.

[00:38:22] Like, that's when the energies, you kind of ascend to higher and higher levels, and you can see that when you have various spiritual experiences. Oh. Like, you never really have spiritual experiences by, like, making it happen. It usually tends to happen when we're just, like, very sub- like, settled. Exactly.

[00:38:39] We're, yeah, we're not, we're not seeking for it. We're not trying to make anything happen. We're just being with what is exactly as it is, and then very spontaneously, those kinds of higher experiences can start to bubble into the perception.

[00:38:59] Donna: You know, this is what caught my attention, because I was living joyfully and just as this for years.

[00:39:07] Zane: Yeah.

[00:39:07] Donna: And then just in the last several years, like, it's like, where has my joy gone? And I knew something was... It's like, what am- what? What is it? 'Cause I f- felt, like, very flat.

[00:39:20] Zane: Mm, yeah.

[00:39:21] Donna: For a n- s- It-

[00:39:25] Zane: And

[00:39:27] Donna: I think I just wasn't... I think I was repressing-

[00:39:31] Zane: Yeah ...

[00:39:32] Donna: s- something.

[00:39:34] Zane: Well, yeah, well, that's... Yeah, I was in that for years.

[00:39:40] Like, a big thing for me was- Well, a lot of it is like when, when we're trying to suppress or, or repress the individuality, that can make for a very flat, uh, sort of- Yes ... experience. Yes. It's

[00:39:56] Donna: Yes.

[00:39:57] Zane: And, and-

[00:39:59] Donna: Dry. [00:40:00] Dry.

[00:40:00] Zane: Yeah.

[00:40:01] And, and really what it's doing, when you're trying to get rid of the individual, it's like you're putting your system at war against itself.

[00:40:09] Donna: Oh my God, yes

[00:40:09] Zane: Because, bec- and because the isness doesn't try to get rid of anything. So it's like when you're trying to get rid of the individual, it's actually, it's the individual trying to get rid of the individual. And then it cr- it creates this internal war. And it, it, it also can keep us very stagnant to where we're not giving ourselves permission to flow with life or- Yes

[00:40:37] or to embrace like the, the human side of things.

[00:40:39] Donna: I've got goosebumps. That's w- that's it. That's exactly what I was doing-

[00:40:44] Zane: Yeah ...

[00:40:44] Donna: because I learned that somewhere along the way, you know- And it- ... one of those groups.

[00:40:50] Zane: Yeah. And so the, the, the key with that is to see- Go on. Go

[00:40:55] Donna: on ...

[00:40:55] Zane: the, the, the key to see is that the idea of thinking you need to get rid of the individual, that's another distortion.

[00:41:03] That's another hijacking. Because you don't have to get rid of the individual. You just recognize that the individual is also made of that isness. That's...

[00:41:14] Donna: Yeah.

[00:41:14] Zane: And it's- And you actually, the higher purpose of individuality or of the subject-object mode, it's a safety mechanism. It's for our safety. Like you need the sense of individuality to live and operate in the world.

[00:41:32] Donna: Yep.

[00:41:35] Zane: We incarnated in the relative for a reason. Like, if you just wanted to stay as the absolute and not be an individual, you would've just done that, and you have all of eternity to do that. So while you're an individual, you may as well enjoy individuality but enjoy it from freedom and, and from this, the, from your infinite nature rather than from separation and lack-

[00:42:01] and contraction, basically.

[00:42:04] Donna: I wonder if that thing Saturday night was about... Well, here I'm been moving more into that enjoy my individuality, and now- ... but that may not even be real. Maybe that was some kind of threat of some kind. I don't know. It, you know, it was like I'm just starting to enjoy this now and...

[00:42:24] But it's not really real. Which it may not be anyway. It doesn't matter. But s- uh, I come from a long line of survivor... Oh, I know we all do, but my, my mother's line, my, this DNA, w- we're from Eastern Europe, poor peasant stock- Mm ... with huge families and survive- now, I didn't have any children- Yeah ... but everybody else did.

[00:42:45] Okay.

[00:42:46] Zane: Yeah.

[00:42:47] Donna: So I've got it, and it, some of that does come into the DNA, does it not? That, that... And these- Yeah ... women were strong. My mother was fierce. My grandmother was fierce. You know, everybody So I've got this fierce survival, you know, do what you have to do- Yeah, yeah ... kind of spirit. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

[00:43:05] I love that, yeah. Like yeah, suppressing the individual. 'Cause I kept saying somewhere along the line a couple years back, "I hate this non-dual stuff. It's so dry." Yuck.

[00:43:17] Zane: Yeah, no, ex- it,

[00:43:18] Donna: yeah. Totally missing the point.

[00:43:19] Zane: Well, but no, yeah. That's, yeah, that's exactly. Yeah.

[00:43:25] Donna: Got it. It's, it's part of that. It's part of the isness.

[00:43:29] That's the key. That is the key.

[00:43:32] Zane: Yeah, the, yeah, 'cause the individual is not counter to non-duality. It's just also made of that non-duality. And the funny thing is, the more you label the individual a problem and you try to get rid of it, the more dualistic and individual that makes it in a roundabout way.

[00:43:50] Yeah. Or a lot of... Like, what happened for me, and I think happens for a lot of people, is we just start to dissociate from the individual. Like, we can start to be, like, very, like, floaty and out of body. And, like, it kind of seems like we're in these higher states, but it can start to make us very disconnected from- Yeah

[00:44:07] like, the, the human side of things. Um, and then we can kind of become addicted to dissociating, where that's our kind of, like, coping mechanism. It's like any time a challenge comes up, rather than meeting it from the isness, we just dissociate into awareness land. And we're just like- ... "Oh, it's all, it's all just happening."

[00:44:27] "It's all just awareness."

[00:44:28] Donna: I love that.

[00:44:32] Dissociate into awareness land.

[00:44:34] Zane: Yeah.

[00:44:35] Donna: That's classic.

[00:44:40] And- Oh ...

[00:44:41] Zane: and then it's so addicting 'cause we're having all this knowledge that says, "This is the highest path. Get rid of the individual. This is the big purpose." Like, it's, it's feeding this, like, thing. But the, the, the real getting rid of the individual, it's not getting rid of the individual. It's transcending it.

[00:45:00] Like, that's what the isness is the transcendence. It's like in the sense that the screen transcends the movie. The movie is the screen, and the screen is the movie, but the screen transcends the movie. And that's what the isness is. It's like by being the isness to the individual, we're transcending the individual.

[00:45:23] But transcendence isn't about getting rid of. It's more about allowing everything to be exactly as it is. Like, it's, it's being the isness which both is the individual and is prior to the individual.

[00:45:40] Donna: Yeah.

[00:45:42] Yeah

[00:45:48] That's gorgeous

[00:45:52] Zane: And, uh, relating to that, I kind of, uh, lost track of it, but I was gonna say, I was saying there's two important parts to the isness, and the first part is that alchemical nature of things. But then the second very important part is from the isness, that's where we have access to our inner guidance system, which is our intuition and our inspiration, and that's what gives us those nudges to do things within the relative, which is like the yellow brick road.

[00:46:25] It's like what leads us to greater and greater expansion- Yeah ... and possibility. It-

[00:46:31] Donna: And I've experienced that, yep.

[00:46:33] Zane: Yeah. I'm su- I'm... That's what has probably taken you here this whole way, like all along- Exactly ... the journey.

[00:46:38] Donna: Ev- exactly. Exactly. If you met me in 1985, you wouldn't have recognized me. It's been- And- It's been magic.

[00:46:49] It's... It really has been gorgeous, alchemical-

[00:46:53] Zane: Yeah ...

[00:46:54] Donna: love.

[00:46:55] Zane: Yeah.

[00:46:55] Donna: It's been all love. Yeah. It's just been amazing.

[00:46:59] It's been alchemic, that's why that ha- captured me the first time I heard Adya say it. I heard it on a tape or CD or something, talking to somebody. Yeah. He talked, doesn't talk about it much.

[00:47:13] Nobody talks- Yeah, it's- ... about it much.

[00:47:15] Zane: I know. I know. It's like a new thing. It's like-

[00:47:18] Donna: So when I, when I hear it, but that was probably about 2014 I heard that, whoops, I heard that tape, or CD. I think it was a CD at that point. And he talked about bring it just, i- it's transmuta- it transmutes as you're, or there was- Yeah

[00:47:38] whatever he said. It's- Just was like, "Whoa."

[00:47:41] Zane: Yeah. It's-

[00:47:42] Donna: What's that?

[00:47:44] Zane: Yeah. It's p- and it's paradoxical because- From the isness, again, you're not trying to get rid of anything.

[00:47:53] Donna: No, that's the thing. It's

[00:47:53] like, yeah, it's like- You cannot go into it saying, "I'm gonna f-- him up." No, you-

[00:47:57] Zane: I'm gonna... You-

[00:47:58] Donna: No.

[00:47:58] Zane: It's-

[00:48:00] Donna: Better you don't know about it.

[00:48:02] Let it happen.

[00:48:07] Zane: Yeah. Well, no, and I think that's maybe in a way part of the reason that some teachers that understand this don't talk about it in this way. 'Cause it can almost be a little bit counterproductive to start talking about all the amazing things that can happen. Because if you start talking about that, that can create that agenda or that goal where it's like, "Okay, I'm gonna go to the isness because he said that if I go to the isness-

[00:48:34] Donna: Yep

[00:48:34] Zane: it'll get better."

[00:48:35] Donna: That's exactly it. They have to be so careful, and that is probably what has happened with some too.

[00:48:40] Zane: Yeah. Well, and it's- And it's also just the nature of the lower mind to do everything it can to overcomplicate, to, like, tag on very subtle conditions. Like, even... It's like I said with the awareness thing, like being the awareness.

[00:48:59] It tags on that condition of, like, okay, I'm the awareness. I'm observing this thing being observed. Yep. And then there's kind of just this, like, sitting and waiting kind of thing. But-

[00:49:14] Donna: Oh my gosh.

[00:49:15] Zane: And

[00:49:15] Donna: the-

[00:49:17] it. The,

[00:49:18] Zane: the, the beautiful thing about when you do it as the isness, that's kind of why I like the word flowing isness, because it shows that this, this includes movement and it includes action. And so what I mean by that is, like an example could be, say you have a problem with like headaches, and you have a headache come up.

[00:49:40] When you meet the headache from the isness, you can still take practical action to alleviate the headache in whatever way may feel right. Like the lower mind w- can try to say things like, "Oh, well, the headache's the invitation, and so I just need to sit here and be the [00:50:00] isness to the headache-" "... and I can't do anything."

[00:50:03] But then that's trying to like freeze you in place. But really, what tends to happen a lot of times is when we meet the challenges from the isness, that's when we'll have that inner guidance. Mm-hmm. That's when we'll have our inspiration or that intuition, and that's when we may, like say for the headache, you may meet it as the isness, and then you have this random thought come in of like, "Oh, I remember my one friend said that this could be useful for headaches."

[00:50:27] And then you can try it from the isness. Exactly. And a lot of times that ends up being the perfect solution. Yeah. And that's, th- that's very, very powerful is because you maintain that complete flexibility and that groundedness of practicality. Like for many problems, there may still be practical action to take to deal with the problem.

[00:50:50] Or like an extreme example is like if you're bleeding or something, you may want to go and put a Band-Aid on it or something. But, but you can do that from the isness. You can be the isness to that whole thing, and by being the isness to that, that's how you'll be in alignment with your higher nature. Yep.

[00:51:08] And, and that's when you'll find like the perfect Band-Aid, or you'll find- Exactly ... like, like that's when- Intelligence flows Ex- Yeah And that's the f- and that's the flow. Yeah. Like the more you're the isness, that's kind of like th- that is the flow state. Like y- you can really enter the flow state always by just being the isness to whatever is arising.

[00:51:30] Yeah. And there is, there is kind of levels to it. Like you can have moments where it really is flowy and it's really coming through, and like you drop into those really deep stages of presence. But the base of it, isness, is incredibly simple and subtle. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I like how David talks about how neutrality is the base of it.

[00:51:55] Like that's like- Re- really it's saying the same thing. It's saying that nothing i- is counter to it, and the, the neutrality in this sense, it's the transcendent neutrality. So it, it means that you can be the neutrality, like I said, even to fear, even to contraction. Like, the lower mind will try to say that, "Oh, well, if I'm below neutrality, if I'm in the fear, then I'm not being the neutrality."

[00:52:27] But that neutrality, it's referring to the isness which is neutral to everything.

[00:52:33] Donna: Yeah.

[00:52:33] Zane: It's neutral to no matter what's arising

[00:52:39] Yeah.

[00:52:42] Donna: Love it. Thank you so much.

[00:52:45] Zane: Yeah

[00:52:55] Donna: So good talking to you. I just love, um, immersing in this

[00:53:02] Really wonderful

[00:53:04] Zane: Yeah. Well, and we, I, I have more time, so if you, if you wanna keep talking about anything, I, I'm happy to, to keep going

[00:53:15] Donna: I'm just feeling into that 'cause I feel really cooked.

[00:53:23] Yeah. Um, let me just see if there's anything I missed, 'cause I had written just a couple of notes that I wanted to be sure to touch base with you on, and I did about the causal.

[00:53:33] That was the core thing is, is that, um

[00:53:40] how to organically

[00:53:45] Be with what's showing up, you know, without, without stuffing it back down. That was the question too, is like, and it's... I, I think you've already answered this, but I'm gonna ask it in a different way 'cause then I'll really get it, and it's that how can we tell the difference in, like if we're having like a knee-jerk reaction to a trigger versus a healthy reaction to a boundary thing?

[00:54:14] Zane: The lower mind will try to hijack everything, and it will constantly try to use, it's like I said, like your wisdom or your strengths or your love against you. So it's like- With the boundaries, just like you said, like if you're trying to establish a boundary, the lower mind might try to come in and say, "Oh, well, you know, you're not being very loving."

[00:54:36] Like, but- Yeah ... like, kind of thing. Um, but I mean-

[00:54:41] Donna: And that's her voice. See? That's-

[00:54:43] Zane: Oh ...

[00:54:43] Donna: that's in me.

[00:54:45] Zane: Yeah.

[00:54:46] Donna: Out pictured there.

[00:54:49] Zane: Yeah.

[00:54:49] Donna: Well- I have to be careful of that because I take on too much responsibility sometimes-

[00:54:53] Zane: Yeah, yeah ... for things That can be, that can, that can be a big trap too, where we start to reinforce this idea of like, you know, the outer is always a reflection of the inner.

[00:55:05] Yeah. And every problem that you have is like a... And like there is a truth to that, but that's already... What's true is already true. You don't have to think about that. 'Cause a lot of times when we start to form that into a thing, that itself can form into, like, an idea and a position which can keep us- Yeah

[00:55:28] very... And it can be, it can be extremely energetically taxing. Because what happens is it starts to mess with the individuation process of the brain. The individuation process is that it's how our brain deciphers between like I'm here, this is me, and this is my responsibility, and then the stuff out there, that's other people's stuff.

[00:55:53] But when we start to constantly hear this thing of like, oh, all is awareness, everything is me, it can start to train the brain to take responsibility for everything. And that can be catastrophic internally, because it can make us like very, very socially anxious and reactive because we're taking responsibility for everything.

[00:56:14] Donna: Exactly.

[00:56:14] Zane: Um, but really it, it kind of goes back to, to that thing of understanding that, that nothing is counter to the isness. And so individuality and boundaries, those are not counter to the isness, because those are also made of the isness. And you need to be grounded in your individuality in a way, like I said, to live and interact in the world, and to be able to handle challenging energies without getting swept away by them.

[00:56:48] 'Cause like if you're interacting with someone that has very intense energies and you have a belief system running that says like, "Oh, well this is me, this is me pushed out, and so this is something that I'm doing wrong," you're gonna get, you're gonna get- Yeah ... really swept away by those energies. Um,

[00:57:09] but- So, so there can be a lot of power in actually embracing boundaries and individuality within the relative, and understanding that that's necessary. And a lot of times holding boundaries is actually the more loving thing to do. 'Cause when we don't do that, a lot of times it's coming from that kind of codependency-

[00:57:33] Donna: Exactly

[00:57:33] Zane: or that, like, kind of thing. And the key thing is, is that which flows from contraction serves contraction, and that which flows from expansion serves expansion. Um, and so sometimes setting boundaries a- and being firm, if that's what's most expansive for you, even though it might look like, you know, being a little firm with someone or, or being a little not so lovely, that actually can be the most loving option- Yeah

[00:58:05] if that's the- Yeah.

[00:58:06] Donna: A, a no to someone else is a yes to me.

[00:58:09] Zane: Yeah, yeah.

[00:58:11] Donna: And I didn't know how to say no for a long time.

[00:58:14] Zane: Right, yeah.

[00:58:15] Donna: And wow, did I... That was me back in 1980. Ugly, ugly stuff. Ugly stuff.

[00:58:24] Zane: When it's, it's... And we can think that that's counter to the spirituality, you know, that it's like we have to be a- But

[00:58:30] Donna: it wasn't.

[00:58:30] It served Yeah. Oh my God, it served. Yeah. It did. It's amazing.

[00:58:36] Zane: But to, to answer your question about, like, when you have that, that gut feeling come up, like how do you decipher between where that's coming from, I would say the key is, is that whether it's good or it's bad, you always wanna meet it from the isness.

[00:58:52] You always wanna meet it from the isness, and then you just follow w- You just do your best with what feels right from there. Yeah. So it's like if it is kind of like an insecurity or, like, a challenging energy, when you meet it from the isness and you flow from there, if it's that kind of energy, the isness will start to alchemize as, and, like, unwind and transmute it.

[00:59:20] But then if it's a kind of intuitive kind of thing that's, that's guiding you towards something, when you meet it from the isness, the more you meet it from the isness, that will empower you to follow that in the most kind of present and- Uh, like in- intuitive and higher intelligence way possible, 'cause you'll be in touch with that non-reactivity, with that presence.

[00:59:49] And so no matter what's coming up, you can still just flow from there. Like, whether it's a, a, a contraction in [01:00:00] the sense of guidance or a contraction in the sense of fear, either way you can meet it from the isness, and then you just flow from there.

[01:00:09] Donna: Yeah.

[01:00:09] Zane: Um-

[01:00:11] Donna: It's that resonance thing. Going... Core resonance.

[01:00:16] You know, like a tuning fork?

[01:00:18] Zane: Oh, yeah, resonance. Okay, yeah, I see. Yeah, yeah.

[01:00:21] Donna: That, that is a really good... That's been a very good guide for me-

[01:00:24] Zane: Yeah ...

[01:00:25] Donna: over time. Yeah, 'cause- When I go off, you know. You know. You feel it if you're react- going from a contracted place.

[01:00:33] Zane: Yeah, yeah. It's

[01:00:34] Donna: very different. Yeah.

[01:00:36] Zane: And then, and then as you, you do your best to respond to the situation, even if, say, you make a little mistake, even if, say, you go a bit overboard on the boundaries or you go underboard on the boundaries, at least having taken that step and flowed from there, you have that clarity and it refines that clarity in terms of, okay, well maybe next time I'll tone it back, or maybe next time I need to be more firm, like, kind of thing.

[01:01:03] Like, that's kind of the refinement that happens. And the more that you meet it from the isness, you'll just naturally be more present, more clear, and the right responses and the right actions will kind of just bubble into your, your perception. Like, you'll just have little ideas of, of how you could have handled it or what would be the right action to take- Yeah

[01:01:28] or that kind of thing. Um-

[01:01:31] Donna: Yeah. That's perfect, yeah. That's-

[01:01:34] Zane: Yeah ...

[01:01:35] Donna: really good.

[01:01:36] Zane: I wanted to add one thing that, um, was a really big realization for me, and it seems to be for a lot of people that are, that are into the, the David thing, um, is around challenges and, and- I- it's very important to understand that the idea of the invitations and, and effortless being, it doesn't mean that we just never do anything challenging.

[01:02:06] Because that can start to turn into a big frozen point- ... where li- and like, like one example, my own version of that real quick, was like around me starting a YouTube channel. Like I've been inspired to talk about this stuff for years. Like I love it. Like this is like my- Well, you're wonderful ... find joy. My- oh You're wonderful

[01:02:25] Donna: and clear-

[01:02:26] Zane: Thank-

[01:02:27] Donna: and

[01:02:27] Zane: succinct Thank you. But thank... But yeah, I, I would constantly though, I would, especially with David too, 'cause David's whole thing is everything will come to you, effortless being. Yeah. I never lift a finger. Right. Like I never do anything that's contraction. So I would constantly get in this thing of like I would have inspiration to do something, but then I would- I, I, I would also, I would have nervousness and insecurities and fear around like say like putting myself out there.

[01:02:56] Like it was kind of like really scary to start a YouTube channel. Yes. Of like ... And so I would constantly think like, "Oh, no. When I'm really there, there won't be any challenge. It will all just magically happen. So I'm just gonna go for walks and just do what feels easy- ... do what feels nice. And like, and then when I'm really there I will just channel this perfect book, or Conscious TV will just call me, and like I'll just be just like Eckhart or David or that kind of thing."

[01:03:23] But the more I did that, it actually made me more and more avoidant. I started heavily avoiding my challenges. And really everything just became more contracted. Hmm. Like I just kept having more and more problems. But the real progression and expansion and transformation for me started to happen by flowing through the challenges.

[01:03:44] Yeah. Because the thing is, is when we're avoiding the challenges, in a roundabout way that actually is accepting the invitation into- ... the challenge. 'Cause you're, you're avoiding it, so you're reacting to it. Yeah. And then you're still holding it in place. But so like for me with the YouTube channel, what that looked like was like the first several times I did calls, or the first several times I put out videos, I was kind of terrified.

[01:04:10] Like it was scary. I would have a lot of anxiety coming up, like insecurity, like my voice would be shaking. I'd be a little nervous. Like it would be like quite scary. But the key was I would meet it from the isness. I would meet those challenges from the isness. Yeah. And then that's how they started to, to transform and transmute and progress.

[01:04:33] And that's when I've gotten the real expansion. Whereas when I was avoiding the challenges it felt expansive in the moment, 'cause I was staying comfy. I was staying in my comfort zone, but nothing was really progressing. Right. Like nothing was really, um, unfolding because I wasn't ... And I was, I was actually cutting myself off from that inspiration because I was thinking, "Well, if it's real inspiration then it, there won't be any contraction," like kind of thing.

[01:05:01] Oh. So I just ... But the key is, is that there can be frozen energy or contractions- Associated to our inspirations. It's like for me, the inspiration was to start the YouTube channel, but there was also a ton of insecurity and fear around that. But by flowing through it a- and showing up and, and engaging with it anyways, even despite of those contractions-

[01:05:26] Donna: Right

[01:05:26] Zane: that that's how the energy started to, to transform and transmute. And then it's created this very beautiful... It's almost like an active meditation practice kind of thing, where the YouTube channel, it's simultaneously the greatest gift but also the greatest challenge, 'cause it provokes all of those avoidance patterns and insecurities and, and fears that I had.

[01:05:51] Yeah. It, it brings all that to the surface, like around like public speaking or putting yourself out there or, or just also the responsibility. It's like there's a lot of pressure of like, well, if someone books a call with you, of kind of like, oh, well, you know, you need to be in a good state. Like you need to like kind of thing.

[01:06:09] Like it's, it can kind of be a lot of-

[01:06:11] Donna: Get to see it all. Oh my God.

[01:06:14] Zane: Exactly. But it's- Yeah ... but and to, uh, it's funny, just a couple weeks ago, I'm not sure if you saw... Have you seen Jessica, the one who wrote David's book, Effortless Being? She-

[01:06:28] Donna: Yeah ...

[01:06:28] Zane: j- so she actually started her own YouTube channel, and she started talking about some stuff.

[01:06:34] Um-

[01:06:34] Donna: I do not think that I've listened to her, but I h- she must have shared something on the group '

[01:06:39] cause I know who she is.

[01:06:40] Zane: She's on David's-

[01:06:40] Donna: Yeah ...

[01:06:40] Zane: she's on David's channel, and she's the one- Yeah ... who like wrote David's book for him. Yeah. But so it's funny, she, she put out a video a few weeks ago that I saw, and she was talking about a conversation that she had with David in private.

[01:06:55] And she says that she asked David, uh, 'cause she was asking about this contraction thing, and she asked him, you know, like, "When you went to do that conscious TV interview, did you feel nervous or anything? Like, did you feel any type of contraction?" And what he told her was, he told her that he felt so nervous that he thought he was gonna pass out before he did it and-

[01:07:22] Oh, wow

[01:07:23] I think, I think that's really important for people to hear because- Yeah ... a lot of people are thinking, "Oh, well, so if I feel nervous for the conscious TV interview, then I just shouldn't do it." Like, th- th- that, that means that that's contraction, and so I just shouldn't do it. But the thing is, is, like, even David, even the great David was terrified.

[01:07:42] He was so nervous. Like, he was- Yeah ... and he didn't just stay avoidant and just say, "Oh, well, that feels like contraction, so I'm just not gonna do it."

[01:07:50] Donna: Yeah, yeah. We can't do that. That, we, no, we gotta move. Ex- We gotta follow the movement ...

[01:07:57] Zane: exactly. Like, taking action and stepping forward is so key. And then that's how you also, again, have access to that inner guidance.

[01:08:06] 'Cause if you freeze yourself up where you're thinking like, "Oh, well, I just have to wait for lightning to strike or something, it all has to be perfect," that cuts you off from the inspiration. 'Cause you may be inspired to do something, but you may be a little nervous, so then you think, "Oh, well, that's not real inspiration."

[01:08:22] Yeah. But m- the key... It's like for David, he was inspired to do the conscious TV interview, but he had a lot of nervousness, but he flowed through it from the isness, and then that's what created the expansion and-

[01:08:37] Donna: Yeah ...

[01:08:38] that's the- Yes. That

[01:08:40] Zane: is

[01:08:41] Donna: so true. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Oh. Oh, is that- So- ... gorgeous? Oh, thank you, Zane.

[01:08:53] Zane: Oh, thank you too. It was so good. It's so good to meet you.

[01:08:57] Donna: Very good to meet you. I'm sure, I'm sure we'll talk again along the way.

[01:09:02] Awesome. And we'll, we'll have that. And thank you. And thank

[01:09:05] Zane: you. Yeah. It was so good to meet you.

[01:09:07] Donna: And, uh, you answered my q- perfect. And I knew them.

[01:09:11] You know, I hesitated. I almost canceled because I'm like, "I've gotta start... This is... I am my own authority." But there were- Yeah ... some things I knew just some clarity helps a lot.

[01:09:23] Zane: It's good to talk it out sometimes and just, yeah, it's bounce ideas off and-

[01:09:28] Donna: Yeah ...

[01:09:29] Zane: yeah.

[01:09:29] Donna: Thank you. All right, love, take care.

[01:09:32] Zane: So good to meet you.

[01:09:33] Donna: Okay. Mm. You too. Bye-bye.

[01:09:35] Zane: Goodbye.