Pre-Verbal Mental Energy, Accessing The Body of Bliss, Dissolving Visceral Fear

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[00:00:00] Kelly: so I just, I wanted... I have, like, some questions, I guess, and I just wanted to, I don't know, check, check things with you, I guess.

 

[00:00:08] Zane: Yeah.

 

[00:00:09] Kelly: Um, I mean, yeah. So I've been kind of, I think like a lot of people, on the path forever. I had experiences as a kid. Um, kind of lost things, got back into meditation, had some experiences, found non-duality, was on the, like, Rupert Spira thing for a long time.

[00:00:30] Um, and then I think I, I think I, like, had some pretty clear moments. Mm-hmm. And then, like, around COVID, life kind of got crazy and I fell off the train. And then the past couple years I've gotten back on the train and found, like, David, and I've really enjoyed Laura Lucille. And-

[00:00:52] Zane: Mm.

[00:00:52] Kelly: Um, yeah. So I, um, I think...

[00:00:57] Like, my understanding is basically it all comes down to, like, the only practice, if there's a practice, is, like, effortless being. Like, just- Yeah ... right? Like, just- Right.

 

[00:01:08] Zane: Yeah.

[00:01:09] Kelly: And I like how you kind of were like, "You don't need to, like, clear the chakras. You don't need to, like, do all this other stuff." That all kind of comes with it.

[00:01:16] Zane: Yeah.

[00:01:17] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:01:17] Zane: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:01:19] Kelly: Um, and one thing that I feel like I am... So I do that, and I, I... Okay, so one thing is just, like, I'm definitely happier than I, I have been in the past, but I don't feel, like, bliss and stuff, so that sometimes worries me. Like, I'm not, you know... I know that, like, maybe comes later or it doesn't necessarily need to come at all.

[00:01:45] But I definitely don't get the, like, bliss kosha. I think I have the effortless being, I think. Yeah. I think I get that. Yeah. I hope... Yeah. I should hope so, 'cause it's, like, just there. But yeah. So that's one thing is, like, um... Yeah, I guess maybe the question is, like, um, in some ways I feel... I mean, my life is, like, a lot better than it has been in the past, but also it feels kind of like I'm maybe s- stagnating or, like, I haven't...

[00:02:16] I'm still maybe stuck in some ways. Um- And I think another, and maybe related to that, is I feel like with David and you and with Laura Lucille, there's, there's a little bit of like, um, you know, you can make the external world better. Like, there's a- Mm-hmm ... little bit of, not like quite manifestation, but like, you know, th- like, there's this like natural result of like dropping desire will bring you things.

[00:02:42] Yeah.

 

[00:02:43] Zane: Yeah.

[00:02:45] Kelly: And I'm, one thing that I'm like really stuck on is I, I, I worry that I'm gonna like f*** things up because I'm- ... you know, like I'm not doing it right. 'Cause one thing I'm really stuck on, I mean, there's lots of things I would like, but my partner and I are trying to have a second kid- Mm-hmm ... and I'm like about to, we're about to do IVF and stuff, and I'm like so afraid that I'm gonna like, it's not gonna work out, and then I'm gonna blame myself, and like...

[00:03:08] So I'm trying to like relegate like wha- uh, yeah, where is like personal responsibility in that? Or like h- yeah, maybe I need like a boot camp for like manifesting or something. I don't know.

[00:03:23] Zane: Yeah. Yeah. Um, oh, sorry.

[00:03:27] Kelly: W- were you gonna make- That's it. That's, that's my sh- that's my question. If it's not, it's not really a question, but that's, those are my, my things that are coming up.

[00:03:34] Zane: Yeah. Well, the, the ultimate responsibility does, uh, fall into our infinite nature. Like, the infinite being will always end up taking care of things. Um, and that's how it always ultimately is anyways. Like, even when we think that we're having some type of challenge or problem, it's not really because something went wrong or because, you know, like we really messed up or something.

[00:04:00] Sometimes there can kind of be effects of our actions, like relating to the manifestation stuff. Like, if we have certain very contractive, limiting beliefs, sometimes we can experience, um, associated, like contracted life experiences. But even when something like that happens, it's never anything going wrong.

[00:04:25] It's really happening for our benefit. It's for the benefit of the refinement and kind of expansion of those limitations into kind of like, it's kind of like the higher purpose of any type of suffering is it's kind of cranking up the contrast, which improves the clarity. It's kind of like when things get more difficult, it actually serves us in a way because it, it, it allows us to, to see things more clearly.

[00:04:54] Um, but no matter what happens, it's always ultimately the infinite being. That's all there is. So it's always safe and, and handled no matter what. Um, so that's good to keep in mind because there's kind of a balance, 'cause there obviously is a level of personal responsibility of like- I don't know, like it's good not to throw trash on the ground or something.

[00:05:21] It's good not to litter . But ultimately, it is all the infinite being, so it kind of, the responsibility falls onto the infinite nature. Um, but So can I ask, how long have you been watching David's stuff?

 

[00:05:39] Kelly: I'm not sure. Maybe four to five months, I would guess

[00:05:44] Zane: Oh, so not very long, like this year- Yeah, not very long

[00:05:45] basically, like, kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, that's, I mean, that's pretty new. Um, that's, like... And it's great that you found David. I mean, I, I went through a similar thing. I don't know how much you kind of dug into my story, but I was in a very similar thing of, like, I was really into Francis Lucille, like Laura Lucille's ex-husband.

[00:06:04] Yeah. Um, I like Laura, too, but I was into Rupert and all those kinds of people. And I mean, they're, they're great. I mean, they're all, like, amazing in their own way. But David really truly is, um, like one of a kind in terms of how much he's kind of mapped everything out and kind of, like, really, like, just, like, the koshas and, like, the idea of the invitations, even the demiurge, even the whole, like, life as an energy game kind of thing.

[00:06:35] All of that is so, like, fundamental to understand, and it answers all the, all of the questions. That actually answers, um, like, the questions about manifestation and those kinds of things. Um, but... And what else I would say, relating to your thing about, uh, like the bliss body or, like, the bliss kosha, you probably experience bliss more than you realize.

[00:07:02] Mm-hmm. Like, I think the way David describes bliss, he kind of makes it sound like even more spectacular than it is, and David probably does have spectacular experiences of bliss. He probably... I, I think there's kind of, there's no real limits to how blissful the bliss can be. But bliss itself is, is very common.

[00:07:24] Like, really, that's one thing that I remember Francis used to talk about. He doesn't use this exact same language, but he would say that any experience of, say, beauty or humor, um, or really, like, beauty to do with anything, it could be beauty to do with music or, or nature or beauty for a partner or beauty for anything, all of that is experiences of bliss.

[00:07:53] Like, the way Francis would describe those is that beauty and humor, those are tastes of our true nature. Those are our tastes of, um, of, of the upper two koshas, o- o- of bliss. But then the kind of, the important distinction, one of the distinctions that David makes that I think is really important to see is that while the beauty and the humor and the bliss are amazing, and they're great to have, they're not the base of it.

 

[00:08:26] The base of it is neutrality. It's just, like, neutrality. Mm-hmm. And that's very important to see because- It's easy to fall into this trap of thinking like, oh, well, if I'm not having the heightened experiences, then I'm not quite there, so then I need- Yeah ... to do something. I need to, like, subtleize the energy, or I need to, like, watch a video, or I need to do something to get to this bliss state But really, the more we do those kinds of things, that kind of seeking or lack-based energy, that's actually a very gross kind of energy.

[00:09:03] It's a very dense kind of energy. And so it actually just prevents us from having the more subtle, refined experiences such as, like, beauty or bliss or those kinds of things. So it's very paradoxical. Um, kind of the way to have more bliss and to have more, uh, of those heightened, refined kind of experiences is actually through just being with the neutrality to exactly where you're at.

[00:09:33] Mm-hmm. Um, and you can kind of see how that happens. Like, I'm sure with you having different spiritual experiences, you've probably had moments where you kind of just drop into, like, a really deep state and you have, like, certain experiences of, like, synchronicity or unity or, like, really heightened, like, spiritual kinds of modes.

[00:09:56] And whenever those happen, you can see how [00:10:00] they never happen by, like, making them happen. They always kind of just bubble on their own.

 

[00:10:06] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:10:07] Zane: But then there can also be a trap there where we think that we have no ability over it whatsoever. We can kind of fall into this trap of just thinking, like, "Oh, well then maybe just once every six months or something when I'm lucky, then I'll have that really amazing experience."

[00:10:24] Kelly: Right.

[00:10:24] Zane: Uh, but until then, I need to, like, keep refining and doing the effortless practice, and then one day I will have more. Um, like, there can kind of be a trap where we can kind of almost become a bit apathetic or kind of like-

[00:10:39] Kelly: Yeah ...

[00:10:39] Zane: like, just, like, waiting around for things to happen. But the, the key is, is again, is, is, is in the neutrality, is we can actually, you can learn to have those subtle, heightened experiences very often.

[00:10:54] Like, that's been a big transformation that I've had is I, prior to finding David and, and getting more clear on this stuff, I was similar to where maybe once every three months I would watch the perfect video and then I would be in this amazing, like, transcendent state. Mm-hmm. Um, and then it would last for a few hours or something.

[00:11:13] I would go for a walk and I would be like, "This is it." And then before I knew it, it would kind of go away, and I would be- Yeah ... and then I would start seeking again, and I would start trying to make my way back. And so I could never figure out what was allowing those experiences to happen. But the, the, the kind of key distinction is seeing that mechanism of what allows those heightened, uh, refined experiences to happen, and what allows them to happen- Is when the energy starts to get subtleized from the neutrality, and that happens on its own.

[00:11:52] Like, that's why when those experiences come, it's never something that we really initiate. It is something we can encourage because we can l- be more rested and, and more, um, kind of abided as that neutrality. Um, but it's like the more that we can be with what is exactly as it is, that's what allows those more heightened subtle qualities to kind of spontaneously percolate into the perception.

[00:12:31] Does that kind of make sense?

 

[00:12:33] Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely relate with a lot of that. And, um- I should have been taking notes 'cause I have so many follow-up questions.

[00:12:44] Zane: Well,

[00:12:45] Kelly: well Um, so, uh, one thing is like, um I, I will say that like you, you mentioned like the, you know, dropping limiting beliefs and

[00:13:04] Zane: Mm-hmm

[00:13:08] Kelly: I'm still, like, a little bit stuck on, on doing that. I guess that's like declining invitations, or- Yeah ... take it from

[00:13:16] Zane: there. Yeah. Well, sorry.

[00:13:19] Kelly: But- N- well, yeah, go ahead, and then I'll- Y- ... say more.

[00:13:22] Zane: Yeah. Well, 'cause the, the, the limiting beliefs thing, that can be a trap too in the sense that sometimes it- we can almost...

[00:13:30] It's like we can take on a limiting belief of, "Oh, I have to get rid of the limiting beliefs, so I have to dig for the limiting beliefs." Yeah.

[00:13:37] Kelly: Okay.

[00:13:38] Zane: And then it's like we're, we're, like, trying to get rid of the limited beliefs within the confines of a limited belief that there's limited beliefs basically.

[00:13:47] Okay. Yeah,

[00:13:48] Kelly: totally.

 

[00:13:49] Zane: And that can kind of keep us, uh, spinning our, our wheels in the dirt basically, 'cause it's like no matter what we're doing, uh, if we're doing it within the confines of, like, a fear and lack-based context of saying like, "Oh, I have to get rid of the limiting beliefs," everything that we do from there is already kind of compromised by the fear or the, the lack-based energy.

[00:14:14] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:14:14] Zane: Um, but the thing to see with the limiting beliefs is that, and this is something that David talks about too in his own way, is you never have to go looking for this stuff. Like, life will serve you your limiting beliefs. You can be guaranteed of that. Like, it will, they will show up. Like, wherever we have some contracted energies, we're gonna find ourselves in situations which expose those, which kind of like pull those to the surface.

[00:14:43] Um, and that's kind of what I meant with, like, the higher purpose of, of suffering, is that on one end, it is kind of like the demiurge trying to feed off of our energy, and it's this whole kind of lower thing. But on the other end, it's really all grace. Like, it's really all opportunity because the demiurge, it has no energy in and of itself.

[00:15:06] It only has the energy which we've kind of fed it in the past-

[00:15:10] Kelly: Mm-hmm ...

[00:15:10] Zane: by accepting the invitations. Um, but so the way that the limiting beliefs, uh, show up is they kind of just surface, just like you said, in the form of whatever invitations that we're having in our day-to-day life. Um, and then a big thing that I talk about, that I think is important to see is rather than using the phrase, like, declining invitations, I tend to say neutralizing.

[00:15:40] Kelly: Hmm.

[00:15:40] Zane: Because-

[00:15:41] Kelly: Hmm …

 

[00:15:42] Zane: there's, there's a big trap in kind of, like, thinking that it's, like, saying no to the invitation. Like, "Oh," like, "No." Like a firm- No ... hard, like, putting up a wall between it or something. Mm-hmm. But the problem with that is, is, like, if, if we're doing it in that way where it's like a, a no, if it's, like, resistant or, or, like, fear-based- It just goes back to that saying of what you resist persists.

[00:16:06] Like, if you're resisting the invitation, in a roundabout way, by saying no to the invitation, you actually are saying yes to the invitation because you're reacting to it. Yeah. It's like, it's like you're saying no to it, but you're holding onto it, pushing it away kind of thing. Yeah. Like, it's, it's like I've said, it's like, it's kind of like trying to get rid of a beach ball by holding it underwater.

[00:16:28] Like, no matter n- eventually, it's bound to come up with a splash, and holding it under the water actually requires effort. It requires quite a lot of, of energy, and then it's always gonna come back up and scare us, and then we react to it. We say no, and then we try to grab a hold of it and push it back underwater.

[00:16:46] Um, but the way that the invitations get declined is, is through the neutrality. It- it's through the transcendent neutrality. And all the transcendent means, it sounds complicated, but it just means in the sense that this neutrality, it's, it's the neutrality of the upper two Koshas, which means that it's prior to the thoughts and emotions.

[00:17:13] So the reason why that's important is that you can be the neutrality to no matter what emotion or, or thought is showing up. 'Cause that can kind of be another sticking point of thinking like, "Oh, well, I have some emotion o- of sadness or of shame coming up, so I must not be being the neutrality. So I have to get rid of the shame in order to be the neutrality."

 

[00:17:37] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:37] Zane: But as long as we're doing that, it's like we're resisting the shame, we're labeling it a problem, and then we're kind of holding it in place. But the way to actually neutralize the invitation into shame is it's about being that, that transcendent neutrality or, like, sometimes I'll use, like, the word isness or effortless being.

[00:17:58] It's being that neutrality to whatever shows up exactly as it is Does that kind of-

[00:18:06] Kelly: Totally ...

[00:18:07] Zane: make sense?

[00:18:07] Kelly: And yeah, the way saying dec- like declining is not saying no. It's really saying yes to it. It's just like-

[00:18:13] Zane: In a-

[00:18:13] Kelly: Yeah. It's- But- ... not resisting it.

[00:18:15] Zane: Yeah. Well, and it, it's like, it's, it- That's the tricky thing with language too is like two different people can say the same words and mean something totally different.

[00:18:25] Like to- Yeah ... one person saying no may mean like neutralizing, but to another person it may mean like resisting it. And also with saying yes to it, it is saying yes to it, but in another way it's not, because we're not like plugging into it.

[00:18:40] Kelly: Yes. '

[00:18:40] Zane: Cause it's like, it's more just like a neutral- Yeah ... allowing without judgment.

[00:18:46] Just a l- kind of allowing the energy to be exactly as it is kind of

[00:18:51] Kelly: thing. Yeah, yeah. That's super helpful. Yeah. And I, yeah, I- That's totally... I, I see ways I've been kind of thinking that I was declining, but really was still like plugged in. It's funny because I like, you know, I come, I came from this more kind of dry non-dual, you know- Mm-hmm

[00:19:12] like we talked about Rupert and Francis and all that. And then I think I was kind of shocked when I started really vibing with like Laura Lucille and, and then, you know, David and stuff, 'cause I was like, 'cause, 'cause of the manifestation stuff. Like I, I, you know, it, it was never something that like felt, I still feel myself, um, resisting it.

[00:19:31] Like it feels like woo woo or whatever.

[00:19:34] Zane: Yeah.

 

[00:19:34] Kelly: Even though I've had experiences of it like totally working out for me. Like despite that, I feel like there's still this strong belief in me that's like, "This can't be," and I don't know what to do with that. Like that's another one that I'm like, yeah.

[00:19:50] Zane: Yeah.

[00:19:50] Well, it's fu- it's funny with the manifestation stuff. It's kind of one of those things that it's like when you first get into the spirituality, the [00:20:00] manifestation is like the big thing, and then you kind of get to this point to where you're like, "Oh, the manifestation, that's like all woo woo garbage." But then you kind of get to the other side of it and you're like, "Oh, that's, there's actually something to that."

[00:20:11] Right. There's actually like a lot of the woo woo spiritual stuff does have a lot of validity. The problem with that stuff is, is in most discussions of it... Oh, there's a wasp flying around my car. Oh, god. One second. Sorry. I'm gonna roll down my window.

[00:20:27] Kelly: Take care of that.

[00:20:28] Zane: Um, uh, the problem with the manifestation stuff is in any of the kind of woo woo stuff, is there tends to be so much just like distortion and confusion kind of blended into all of it.

[00:20:44] Um, but the manifestation stuff is, is very real. The, but the, there's certain things to kind of be aware of. Like one thing, uh, that I would caution against, and I was kind of in a trap for a long time, is kind of looking at manifestation almost in terms of like, like solipsism. I don't- have you ever heard of solipsism?

[00:21:08] No. Like, it's kind of like kind of looking at it in terms of like every single thing that happens comes down to you. Mm-hmm. Like if a, if, if the war in Iran is happening, then that's your fault because- Okay. Yeah, yeah ... you manifested that. That, don't get into that too much. Like there is an element of that, 'cause we are all the collective and we all kind of energize these things in our own way.

[00:21:31] Um, but I, I think a much healthier and kind of grounded way of looking at the manifestation is just looking at it in terms of energy. Like everything is ultimately energy. It's all energy. And- There's, there's a natural process where whatever kind of energetic state that we're in, that tends to be reflected to us in the 3D world in terms of whatever kind of events and people and places, um, we have showing up.

[00:22:12] But

[00:22:16] It's

[00:22:23] It's ki- d- does that kind of make sense? D- is there anything like specifically about the manifestation that's kind of

 

[00:22:29] Kelly: Well, I think one thing that I worry about is that like, because I, I dismissed it for so long, and then now I'm worried that like I am, I have like a ulterior to, a ulterior motive and like s- like I think ultimately the spiritual search is like kind of just seek, seeking happiness.

[00:22:53] Zane: Yeah.

[00:22:53] Kelly: And so maybe that's every- there's no way of getting around an ulterior motive in a way. But I worry that like I'm like maybe trying to let things go because I want something, uh, and maybe, I don't know, that feels- Yeah ... it seems wrong. Or I don't know, it feels like I'm, something got tainted or something.

[00:23:15] I don't know.

[00:23:16] Zane: Yeah. Well, yeah, there, there can be an element of that. That can be, that was like one of the big traps that I was in with manifestation for a long time of like, it goes back to that, that context thing and kind of like taking limiting beliefs about the limiting beliefs. Like the way that would play out for me was prior to finding David, I was so into the manifesting stuff, and I had had genuine, like incredible manifestations.

[00:23:48] Like I had experienced that enough to know that when things change within, it, the world does tend to change. Like our life experiences do tend to, to reflect that. But then- A big trap with the manifestation, the one that I kind of started to fall into, was I started to take a very, like, subconscious kind of pre-verbal context of saying that the higher frequencies are good.

[00:24:15] Those are where I want to be, and those are where I need to make my home. And then the lower frequencies are not good. Mm-hmm. And so I need to never be in the lower frequencies, and if I can just stabilize at the higher frequencies for long enough, then all my problems will, like, magically go away. But the problem with that was, was that I was very subtly labeling the lower frequencies a problem.

[00:24:36] I was making a problem out of certain life experiences that I was having. Like, one for me was around money. Like, I would kind of think, "Well, I want to have more money, so I don't want to be where I'm at, so I need to cultivate this higher frequency. And then if I can, like, stabilize this higher frequency, then my money problems will go away."

[00:24:55] But what I wasn't seeing there was the whole time I'm clinging to this pre-verbal context of, like, where I'm at is not okay. Mm-hmm. The lower frequencies that I'm feeling are not okay, and so I need- Mm, mm-hmm ... to do something to, like, get to this higher frequency. But that would just keep me spinning my wheels in the dirt, or it would make for a very pendulum-based experience.

[00:25:17] It would make for a lot of, like, horizontal movement- Mm-hmm ... where sometimes I would get to really high states, but then at some point something would come up and it would kind of push on that, and I would go swinging the other way, and I would swing back into a low state. And I wasn't really having much of this kind of, like, vertical ascension or, or kind of integration process.

 

[00:25:37] Kelly: Hmm.

[00:25:37] Zane: Um, but the, the thing with the manifestation is- You really never even need to think about anything that you want to manifest. You can if you want. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. If you feel inspired to visualize or, or do things like that, that can be great, but all you really need to focus on from moment to moment is just being neutral, just being with that, that neutrality, that, that effortless being or that isness to whatever is arising, no matter what it is.

[00:26:13] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:13] Zane: And then in a very paradoxical way, from there, again, that's when the energy will start to kind of effortlessly and spontaneously, like, refine and subtleize. And from there, you tend to cultivate more and more abundance and possibilities and opportunities with even less effort than the manifestation.

[00:26:37] 'Cause it is still manifesting, but from there you're not even thinking about manifesting. You're just being with what is exactly as it is. Um, and to kind of like bring it back, uh, to my example, like with the money thing, like kind of the, the shift in how I started to see it was rather than kind of rejecting where I'm at and trying to constantly cultivate this higher, like, financial state, I started to realize I don't even need to think about a future financial state.

[00:27:06] I can just be with where I'm at, exactly where I'm at, and then in a very kind of strange and magical way, I start to recognize the abundance that's already all around me, all of the abundance that is already there, and from there more and more abundance starts to manifest- Mm ... without even thinking about it.

[00:27:25] Mm. Like, it's kind of like- Again, it's paradoxical, 'cause from here you're not trying to manifest anything. You're not labeling anything a problem. But from that kind of supreme okayness, that just supreme flow with whatever is, that kind of unconditionalness, you tend to get better and better conditions.

[00:27:46] Mm-hmm. Because you're not, you're not clinging to any resistance. You're not clinging to, to any problems. And also from there, that's a very freeing perspective because you no longer see any of the lower frequencies or any of the challenges as problematic. You just see it all as opportunity. 'Cause sometimes with the manifestation stuff, if we do have a problem come up, there can kind of be this thing of like, "Oh, well I must have messed up somewhere.

[00:28:16] Like, I manifested this problem, like I must have done something wrong."

 

[00:28:20] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:28:20] Zane: But that itself can be a kind of invitation trying to, to tag on to the other invitation. But like from here, from this isness, this kind of like all okayness, you realize that it's totally normal for challenges to come up, and that's not anything going wrong.

[00:28:38] That's actually opportunity. That's these kind of lower unconscious patterns surfacing for the sake of being transmuted from the neutrality, of the sake of being neutralized or, or like declined, like, like neutralized from the neutrality. And then on their own they start to flow upwards. 'Cause energy, energy has a natural flow to it.

[00:29:04] It, it's trying to flow in a particular direction, and that direction is towards expansion and refinement and, like, all the amazing things. It's just that what stops that is the kind of conscious and subconscious tendencies of clamping down on the energy, of kind of like we feel a contracted energy come up, and then there's that tendency of like, "Oh, this is not okay, so I need to project it or suppress it or avoid it or be awareness to it in order to get rid of it," or like whatever it may be.

[00:29:41] Some, basically some version of rejecting the energy, labeling it a problem, and then trying to do something to change it. But that itself is what, that's the clamping down on the energy that holds it into place.

 

[00:29:55] Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, this feels really, [00:30:00] um, yeah, that's super helpful and I feel, I think maybe also this is related to something else that what you've talked about kind of brought up for me, which is like, um, I like your word of like contexts, 'cause I'm realizing like, um, one thing I've, I've heard people say is, you know, uh, the end of the search doesn't have to have fireworks.

[00:30:25] It doesn't have to be, have bliss. It doesn't have to have anything. But a lot of people do still say like, "Oh, I felt my... Like I didn't need to seek anymore." And there's, I still feel a lot of seeking energy, like I'm talking to you, like I'm still watching things even though I know and I so s- clearly see that like all I need to do is just stay with the neutrality.

[00:30:52] Zane: Yeah.

[00:30:52] Kelly: The isness. And like I Um, but I can, I can maybe, like one thing is that I c- I can just be neutral to the seeking energy. Like, I don't need to-

[00:31:03] Zane: Exactly.

[00:31:04] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:31:05] Zane: Yeah. And there's probably an element to, a, a, a great word to tune into, another one that I got from David, is hijacking. 'Cause hijacking is like, that's the main basis through which the lower mind works.

[00:31:20] Um, and the reason I bring that up is that's probably a lot of what is driving your kind of seeking energy, is there probably is a lot of inspiration in it. You probably just love this stuff. Mm. Like, you probably just enjoy it. It's probably super interesting to you. You like hearing about it. Um, and that's good.

[00:31:39] Like, you don't have to get rid of any of your inspiration. Like, that actually gets unlocked and empowered through this. And your inspiration and your intuition, that's your kind of inner guidance system which guides you to the next best things within the world. 'Cause there's kind of a never-ending unfoldment of, like, we can have new insights or new experiences or new perspectives or new little techniques and things that can come in, but the guidance in terms of the best ones and the best moment, it comes from that inspiration and that intuition.

[00:32:15] Um, but then what the lower mind does is the lower mind, because it, it, it's fear-based, it's fear and lack-based, and that's all that it knows. It's not really, truly evil. It's kind of just, sometimes I'll say it's, it's like an angry child. It's like an angry toddler that is just scared and angry and confused, and all it knows is the fear, and all it knows to do is to perpetuate the fear.

[00:32:43] And it has its own kind of intelligence to it. It's a- it's actually very strategic in how it works. You can kind of see: you can start to recognize how, like, cunning and sly it is. Um, but it loves to work on the basis of hijacking. So it will take something which we're genuinely inspired by, or, like, it will take some type of recognition of truth or, like, an intuition, and then it's like the lower mind recognizes, especially if you're s- a spiritual seeker, if you really, like, love truth, the lower mind kind of recognizes that you love that truth.

[00:33:19] Like, you love that, like, higher thing, and you're not gonna let go of that. So rather than trying to make you let go of it, because it knows you're not gonna let go of it, it tries to blend in as much fear as it can so that without even realizing While you're kind of riding this wave of inspiration, more and more and more, like, fear and control kind of starts to get blended in, and it can kind of...

[00:33:44] Uh, the, the visual I get is it is a- almost kind of like this hijacking nature. It's kind of like the energy is going up and up and up, and then the lower mind is, like, blending in more and more fear, and it's kind of trying to drive it down. Right. It's kind of trying to hijack it or redirect it downwards.

 

[00:34:00] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:00] Zane: Um, and that can happen with a lot of the things, like with the seeking energy. Like, it's probably a combination of sincere inspiration. Like, you probably get a lot out of this. Like, you are being guided in certain ways, but then your lower mind knows that this information is the greatest threat to the lower mind, and it knows that, like, all it wants to do is keep kind of perpetuating fear.

[00:34:28] So it's gonna try to, to blend in, like, fear and lack-based elements into that inspiration, um, to kind of try to distort and, like, corrupt the, the, the whole thing. Um, but Yeah. Does that kind of make sense with the, the hijacking?

[00:34:50] Kelly: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so it's really just, it's, it's really just an invitation.

[00:34:59] The seeking is It's like, uh, apparently somebody told me that Adyashanti told them that, like, the s- the seeker dies a slow death, which, which helped me a little bit too.

[00:35:12] Zane: Yeah. Yeah. Well-

[00:35:13] Kelly: It just, yeah

[00:35:15] Zane: It w- and all of the stuff about, like, the, like, the fireworks or, like, this happens when you awaken or the...

[00:35:23] Like, all of that can just make things so much more, like, confusing than what it is. There can be incredible fireworks and explosions. Like, I've had a lot of that. I had a very, like, transformative awakening. But all of that, that has to do with the energy side of things. Like, you can start to have a lot of those firework experiences, but in order to have those, again, that happens by refining and subtleizing the energies from the neutrality, and that happens completely on its own.

[00:35:59] Um, so a- a- again, like, you never need to make any of that stuff happen. Like, the more you can just be with what is exactly as it is while also so giving yourself permission to follow inspiration and follow intuition and to kind of do things that you feel attracted to, you will naturally find yourself kind of bubbling into more and more, um, kind of, like, heightened experiences.

 

[00:36:32] Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's also, it's funny because it's like it's not... Like, this, the, the experiences are also not, like- They're like, they're also phenomenal, you know? Like, it's, it's not what I'm looking for- Yeah ... in the end.

[00:36:48] Zane: Yeah.

[00:36:48] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:36:49] Zane: Yeah.

[00:36:49] Kelly: So it's- Yeah ... yeah. Well- It just, but it, but it feels like, yeah, I, I feel like I keep looking for like signs from the outside.

[00:36:57] Zane: Yeah.

[00:36:57] Kelly: You know?

[00:36:58] Zane: So-

[00:36:58] Kelly: Yeah ...

[00:36:58] Zane: y- and, and, and so that's like a big trap. Like, there's, there's a million different kind of tendencies we can have. Um, but that was a, that was a big one that I remember catching maybe a year ago or so too of like this tendency to, to ping outward for progress or to kind of like-

[00:37:18] Kelly: Yeah,

[00:37:19] Zane: yeah

[00:37:19] it's like we're trying to monitor where we're at by looking to something like outwardly as a kind of approval. It can be sometimes it's for social approval, sometimes it's like financial approval, sometimes it's just like spiritual approval. Mm-hmm. Like, am I having the spiritual experience? But that right there, that's an example of the kind of like seeking energy.

[00:37:44] And all of the energies, especially like for you at this stage, they're all subtle. Even the dense, heavy energies are subtle. Mm-hmm. Like, they're all subtle. It all, it all starts to get like incredibly subtle at this level. So when you're kind of doing that like pinging thing of like pinging to like pinging for progress, it probably doesn't feel like much effort.

[00:38:06] It probably feels very kind of subtle and light. But that there is a level of like dense kind of gross energy in that.

 

[00:38:14] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:38:14] Zane: And to whatever degree we're doing that, that kind of keeps us bound to that like denser, lower frequency. And it's so funny, it's like it actually gives us the exact opposite results of what we're looking for.

[00:38:28] Like, we're, we're pinging for the progress 'cause we want the spiritual progress, but that very act is what like manifests not having spiritual progress. That's like the, the manifesting kind of thing.

[00:38:40] Kelly: Right.

[00:38:40] Zane: Um, but- Yeah, it's like the more, the more that you just stay with that subtleness and just don't kind of bite that urge of kind of like doing those little, like subtle, energetic, contractive, like, like pingings or, or like whatever it may be, that energy will start to neutralize and subtleize.

[00:39:07] And then you have more and more of those experiences. But again, you're not looking for it from there. It's all just very, like organic and spontaneous.

[00:39:17] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:39:18] Zane: Yeah.

[00:39:18] Kelly: Yeah. And yeah, I think I really... Yeah, that also really checks out. Like recently I realized, like how even the most, the tiniest amount of like feeling like I'm somethingness is like just an immense amount of suffering in that.

[00:39:35] Like, just the slightest... Yeah, j- it's, it doesn't take, it... Yeah, it can be like a molecule of somethingness- Yeah ... that just-

[00:39:48] Zane: Yeah.

[00:39:48] Kelly: Yeah.

 

[00:39:48] Zane: Yeah. Well, and real- I mean, it's really, it's all good that you're, you're s- so subtle. Like, you've got to kind of subtleize to, to, to that level. Um, that just shows the [00:40:00] progress that you've had without even maybe, um, necessarily realizing it.

[00:40:05] Because it's like even, even the kind of grosser, denser energies at this stage have become so subtle that it does kind of, it does kind of get more difficult in a way, in the sense that it's like everything is so subtle at this level, and there's also so few people that have kind of carved out the language to describe these like inner subtle experiences, that it's kind of like, I think of l- most teachers and kind of most students have kind of, as they get to this stage, they kind of just give up on talking about it altogether.

[00:40:42] Mm. I think that's where a lot of like, "Oh, just don't talk about it" kind of thing comes from. Mm. Yeah. You actually can talk about a lot of it. A lot of this can be described, and it's like, it's not that language is the problem. Like language is great when it's being used for expansion and to kind of like serve this thing.

[00:40:58] That's what allows the teachings to come through. Um, but it can be very difficult to talk about because it's, it's all so incredibly subtle. Um, and- It's, it's an inner thing, so it's not quite as simple as like, like if me and you look at an apple, we can both look at an apple and very objectively say, "This is an apple."

[00:41:26] But if you take like an experience of bliss or something, we can't really put bliss down and say, "This is bliss." Like, it's all very inner, like subtle things. Um-

 

[00:41:37] Kelly: Mm.

[00:41:38] Zane: But you seem like very like refined and, and subtle for sure. Like, you probably... And even just the way in which you're able to, to talk about this stuff, um, like you could see like a much more gross example of, uh, something that would be like much less subtle, but would be a very common problem for 99% of humans today would be something like, like an energy of like- Oh, I'm not good enough, like everyone hates me, like my life will always be miserable.

[00:42:11] Like, like that kind- like that would be like a very like gross, dense, like much grosser and denser than like your energy of like pinging for kind of progress. Yeah. But you can kind of s- you can kind of see how like for someone that's more subtle, you're not gonna have quite as dense as a kind of invitation of like- Mm-hmm

[00:42:30] oh, everyone hates me. Life is miserable, like something like that. Yeah. The more subtleized and kind of refined- That's interesting. Yeah. The more- Yeah ... subtleized and refined you become, everything becomes profoundly subtle. Mm-hmm. Like, it's like we're even, like what separates like the, the kind of ascending qualities of the upper two koshas i- is, is profoundly subtle.

[00:42:56] Like, even having a little bit of that energy of like kind of checking for progress, just that small denseness of energy will kind of... It's almost like a, it's almost like a cloth that's over your eyes which kind of prevents you from seeing the more subtle things. 'Cause the thing is with the subtle things like beauty or synchronicity or intuition or like telepathy and like all of the kind of mystical, subtle experiences, those are always present.

[00:43:29] They're always here. We're, we're never not experiencing them. It's just that we can't see them. We can't cognize them if our perception is being like clogged up by any level of density. Like, it's like if we have even a speck of kind of like density in our stuff, it, it seems like that stuff is all gone, and then the lower mind will tell us like, "Oh, the, the subtle stuff is gone.

[00:43:55] I need to do something to get back." But that's another dense energy. That's like the start of the, the invitation, um, and that will kind of just keep the wheel spinning.

 

[00:44:06] Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, um, I think this is an unanswerable question, but like how do you... Uh, um, one thing Laura said that I like is like if you, if you want a measure of spiritual progress, like check how often you are s- staying with the kind of, you know, be- the being or whatever, the, the isness.

[00:44:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:35] Zane: Yeah.

[00:44:36] Kelly: And which I kind of like. Um, and I know, like this is... How, how does one... I f- I find myself kind of like lost i- in my personhood a lot still. Do you have any tips for like how to keep staying with it? And, and, a- and, you know, I know in a way there, there's no way of getting out of it, but I, yeah.

[00:45:01] Zane: Yeah. Well, so are, are you asking specifically kind of like about like, like her thing of like, like if there is one way to measure progress? Like-

[00:45:11] Kelly: Well, uh, just more like just how... And I, I think it's, I mean, one other thing I've heard is like you c- it kind of just become like naturally, it's like falling in love with someone.

[00:45:23] You just kind of like visit, like the thought or the, it, you stay with it more because it feels good to stay with it or whatever.

[00:45:31] Zane: Yeah.

 

[00:45:32] Kelly: So maybe in a way, like I'm asking how to fall in love with someone, but like yeah. Yeah. It just happens. I don't know.

[00:45:39] Zane: Yeah. Well, I, I think one element that can kind of, of be an element is a lot of times I think the kind of, the kind of pinging for progress or kind of like pinging for like, it's, it's- It's, it's all like conditional based and it's, it's all like, it's like a lot of it is, is driven by like some layer of like insecurity or kind of like fear.

[00:46:16] Like there can kind of be this insecurity of like, maybe what I'm doing isn't quite right, so if I can just have a marker, if I can just have a benchmark of like, this is my safety point. Like if I can just like refer back to this to like tell where I'm at, like, then like that will be like my, yeah, like my benchmark, like my kind of safety point, and so I need something like that.

[00:46:40] Um, but the problem with that is, is like The infinite being, like your higher nature, like our infinite being, it won't settle for anything less than your highest potential. Like, it's gonna keep serving you challenges that are gonna kind of point you back to your highest potential. And your highest potential is to, to live from your unconditional nature, to live from your nature which isn't dependent on absolutely any external benchmark.

[00:47:13] Like, that's kind of the trap is, like, we don't realize that we can kind of be subtly feeding this kind of root insecurity, this root insecurity of, like, there's something wrong with me, or there's something I need to do, or there's something that's not quite right, and so I need to, like, I need a benchmark to, like, base my stuff on.

[00:47:34] But the problem with that is when we're doing that, we're kind of, it's like we're projecting our sovereignty outward, or we're, we're projecting our unconditional safety, we're trying to project it onto a condition. Mm-hmm. Like, the condition could be, like, how much am I being the beingness?

 

[00:47:51] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:47:52] Zane: Like, even that can be- Yeah

[00:47:53] an outer symbol of safety.

[00:47:55] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:55] Zane: But, like, the, the, the true safety is the unconditional safety. That's why I like the word transcendent, because transcendent, it, it sounds like a complicated word, but really all transcend means is in the sense that, like, the screen of a movie transcends the movie, and the, the, the screen is, like, that's the transcendent non-dual nature.

[00:48:22] And from the, the screen's perspective, the screen doesn't look for conditional signs of safety. Like, the screen never pings onto the movie to make sure it's the screen. Mm-hmm. Like, that's kind of the, what, like, we can kind of fall into. It's like we the infinite being, or we the screen, are trying to ping onto the movie for a reminder that we're the screen.

[00:48:46] But you can see the problem in that. You can kind of see the, the contradictory nature in that.

 

[00:48:51] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:48:51] Zane: And you can see how it's, it's, it's fear-based. Like, it's, the, the, the, the, the screen doesn't need to, to ping for any type of progress, because it's all the screen. The screen is what everything is made out of.

[00:49:07] Um- And that's the recognition of, of the never-changing. Like how David kind of uses the phrase, like, ever-changing and never-changing. Like the isness or the awareness or the screen, that's the never-changing. But it's not never-changing in the sense that it's like the screen is one thing and then the movie is another thing, and they're these two separate things, and that I need to be the screen and I need to not be the movie.

[00:49:35] Mm-hmm. 'Cause that can be a kind of trap too, where it's like we're trying to stabilize as the never-changing.

[00:49:40] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:49:41] Zane: And then we're saying, like, the ever-changing is over here. Yeah. And so I need to be the... But the, the, the recognition, the, the reason that I really like the word isness is that it makes that very simple distinction that absolutely everything that is is made of the isness.

[00:49:58] S- and, [00:50:00] or another way you could word that is that everything about the ever-changing is made of the never-changing. It's not like the never-changing is one thing and then the ever-changing is another. The never-changing is what the ever-changing is made of. And when you know, when you see that and you know that to be true, even on a purely logical level, you see that it doesn't even make sense to be pinging for progress because all of it is exactly what you're looking for.

[00:50:33] Like, whether there's isness of anger- Mm-hmm ... or shame or isness of bliss and peace, it's all made of the never-changing. Mm-hmm. So it doesn't matter whether there's... what w- w- what type of condition or, or progress is showing up, um, but that's the paradox. Again, that's kind of the balance o- of being and becoming, is the more that we live from that unconditional nature, the more we live from that kind of transcendentness of that being level, it doesn't, it doesn't just freeze us up into this kind of like isolated never-changing.

[00:51:14] It actually- We actually become more and more. That's actually how we become more and more, and we get more and more of those conditions. But from there, it's even so much better because we're not looking for any of it. We're not clinging to any of it. We're not, like, saying, like, we're not, we're not outsourcing our sovereignty or our safety onto any type of condition because we realize that absolutely everything is made of that, like, supreme safety, of that, that supreme okay-ness.

[00:51:49] Um, and there's, like, a profound freedom that comes in that because you realize that you don't have to fear anything 'cause it's all made of the same stuff. Mm-hmm. Like, it's all, like... Does that kind of-

 

[00:52:03] Kelly: Yeah, yeah ...

[00:52:04] Zane: make sense? You know?

[00:52:05] Kelly: Yeah, yeah. So I guess, w- uh, uh, my follow-up question to that is, like or maybe this is what I was trying to ask originally, but, like, how, how would you describe the mechanism of, like, of living more from Is it ju- it's just recog- just recognizing the isness?

[00:52:30] Zane: It's, yeah. Well, it's, you're pro- you're probably being the isness already, like 90% of the time. Like, that's the thing too, is you're probably... The isness or the upper two koshas, it isn't something we only access after realization. Yeah. You actually come in and out of it all the time- Right ... your entire life.

[00:52:51] That's one thing David says that I like, is he says that effortless being or isness, that's the source of all creativity. So, like, anything you do, anything creative, not even just- Mm-hmm ... art. Like, cr- your creativity could just be how you make your bed in the morning, or just you just being authentically you.

[00:53:08] Like, that could be creative. Mm-hmm. But the, any type of creativity or any of that, that only flows from the isness or, or from the upper two koshas. Um, so you're probably being the isness a lot more than you even realize, and you've probably been doing it your whole life. That's probably why you've had these experiences.

[00:53:30] That's probably why, that's what would have given you the ability to access the inspiration and the intuition which would have led you here. Like, um-

[00:53:42] Kelly: Mm-hmm ...

[00:53:42] Zane: most people have very, very little access to their inspiration or their intuition. Most, your average human is just doing what they're told, basically.

[00:53:51] They're just doing what they were programmed to do. Which is, like, kind of mean, but it's, like, the truth. It's, it's, like, fear-based programming. It's, like, group think, and, like, just do what you can to fit in, and then maybe if you're lucky you'll go to heaven when you die or something. Yeah. Like, something like that.

[00:54:09] Um, but you're probably being the isness so much more than you even realize. It's just that- The, another thing to, to tune into is in the same way that the hijacking works, the lower mind is, it's constantly trying to pin conditions to the isness.

 

[00:54:37] Kelly: Mm.

[00:54:37] Zane: So it's trying to say like, "Well, I need to be in this heightened feeling to be the isness," or, "This needs to happen to be the isness."

[00:54:45] Or it could be anything. Mm. But again, it's all the isness. It's, it's, it's all the isness. So there's no, like, condition to that. And- That's kind of the whole mechanism is just-

[00:55:03] Kelly: Mm ...

[00:55:03] Zane: being with what is exactly as it is without, um, labeling it a problem. Mm. Um, and . I can give you an exa- like, a real-life example of, like, what this can kind of look like, if that would help.

[00:55:20] Kelly: Sure.

 

[00:55:21] Zane: Yeah. So, um, like, the, with the, the mechanism of, like, declining the invitations, um, I'll, I'll tell you both sides of the story.

[00:55:31] So I, when I was really young, I- Loved playing with bugs. I really liked bugs. Like, I, I can remember being a little kid and, like, um, I liked to capture them and, like, put them in jars and, like, have them be together and, like, have them crawl on me. And like, I just remember really liking bugs. Um, and then I remember at one point I was with my mom and I was with my family, and I was, I was still a kid at this point.

[00:55:59] I was still pretty young, and I always admired certain things about my mom. My mom has a very, like, opposite personality to me. Um, but I always really thought that she was, like, so funny. Like, I just thought, like, she was so good at, like, making people laugh. Um, and I can remember there was one time I was with my mom and my family, and a bug started to crawl on her, and she did not like bugs.

[00:56:23] And she, like, panicked and made this whole big deal about it and, like, freaked out, and everyone thought it was so funny. Like, it was the funniest thing. And I remember thinking like, "Oh, I wanna make people laugh," like how she made people laugh with that. I wanna make people laugh. So I can remember, I literally started to kind of like fake being afraid of bugs.

[00:56:44] Like, I started to pretend like I was afraid of bugs 'cause I was trying to- Wow ... I was seeking attention. I was seeking that effect. I wanted to make people laugh like how I saw her do it. But the kind of strange thing that started to happen without me even realizing, by starting to pretend that I was afraid of bugs and starting to kind of like...

[00:57:06] It's funny, I was almost consciously creating, like, a fear-based energy. I was kind of- Wow ... consciously creating this. Outta nowhere, I started to genuinely be afraid of bugs. Like I would- Wow ... have a bug be around me, and I would start to get that, that feeling of contraction. And because back then I had no idea about any of this stuff, and kind of naturally when you feel contraction, you kind of instinctively want to fight it.

[00:57:34] It f- seems like the thing to do with contraction is to fight it. So I would have that contraction come up, and I would fight it. I would, like, suppress it or I would try to, like, push through it, or I would try to like... I would, like, get upset about it in some way. Um, and then that remained for most of my life.

[00:57:52] Like, following that, and I had completely forgot about this whole story. This whole story actually kind of spontaneously came to me back in the, the, the last year, I think, just as kind of like an inspired insight of both how these patterns are laid down but also how they can be released. Um- But so I had this kind of following that, I had this kind of lifelong fear of bugs.

[00:58:18] Like, anytime, it's funny, like, we can be so fearless with certain things, like face the most incredible, like, inner traumas and stuff, but then just be terrified of spiders- Right ... or something. Like, like spiders are just, like, too much. Like- ... that's where I draw the line. And I had this where, uh, in the past year I've, I bought a dehumidifier for my, uh, I live with my great-grandma now, um, and I bought a dehumidifier for our basement, and I put it down there, and her basement is filled with spiders.

[00:58:50] There's a ton of spiders, and there's, like, a water thing right down there, so they like to be around that. Yeah. So every time I would go to drain the d- dehumidifier, I would be viscerally confronted with this, like, fear of spiders. Um, and I even remember thinking to myself, I'm like, here I am, like, talking about all this transmuting energy and all this, and yet I have this visceral fear of spiders.

[00:59:13] Like, I kind of- Hmm ... I was almost like I kind of owe it to what I teach to like- ... actually, like, transmute this and, like- Yeah ... face this. Um, so I started to realize, like, oh, like, this is the exact same thing. Like, this is just an opportunity to transmute some, like, fear or lack-based energy. Um, and on this level, because it, it had such a strong emotional charge and I had fueled it for so long, it didn't feel like a limiting belief at all.

[00:59:41] Like, I think that's also kind of the trap is, like-

 

[00:59:43] Kelly: Yeah ...

[00:59:44] Zane: a lot of these invitations, they're not r- they're not really limiting beliefs. They're more like limiting emotions. They're more like- Yeah ... limiting, like, intense anxiety or, like, fear- Yeah ... or like, like, like the body shutting down and, like, stuff like that.

[00:59:57] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:58] Zane: Um, [01:00:00] so it wasn't quite as simple as just, like, removing the limiting belief or something, even though that was an element. But the, the, the, the way that I started to transmute that energy, uh, around that, that fear of the spiders is- As I would go into the situation, and I would kind of, I can almost kind of brace for it 'cause I kind of knew it was coming.

[01:00:24] But rather than bracing in a contractive way of like clamping down, I would brace for it in the sense that I would kind of just be mentally prepared for what was to come. Like I kind of- Mm-hmm ... knew that this visceral feeling is about to come, like when I, these spiders start moving and they're all around me.

[01:00:41] But so- I would just fully, fully, fully allow all of that fear and anxiety and, like, scary energy to be in my body. To fully, fully, fully be there. And I wasn't trying to, like, be with it from awareness or be the witness to it or, like, like subtleize it or neutralize it or any of that. 'Cause I think the problem with a lot of that stuff, it's not that it's inherently bad, but it's kind of like, like even the thing with, like, the witness, it's like the, the trap of the witness consciousness thing can kind of...

[01:01:23] We can be doing it from that context of like, "Okay, this energy is not okay, so I'm gonna be the witness. The witness is safe."

 

[01:01:32] Kelly: Yeah. "

[01:01:32] Zane: This energy is not safe." Yeah. "So if I just am the witness long enough to this energy and I'm kind of like staring at this energy, then it will dissipate." Mm-hmm. And sometimes that kind of works, and sometimes we can kind of like juice the energies.

[01:01:45] That's kind of like what therapy does sometimes, where it's like we're going into the energies and we're fleshing them out and kind of like juicing them and kind of like discharging them. Mm-hmm. But we're still doing it within the confines of like, "This feeling is not okay, and I need to do something to change it," basically.

[01:02:02] But so what I would do is when I would go into that situation, like with the spiders, I wouldn't try to do any spiritual practice or anything. I would just allow whatever I'm feeling to be exactly as it is, no matter what it is, and I would just know that it's okay to be afraid. Like, I don't have to think like, "Oh, I shouldn't be afraid of the spiders," or, "I shouldn't have this feeling," or, "I shouldn't..."

[01:02:26] like, whatever it may be. And I would kind of just also remember that, like, it's all the isness anyways. Like, the isness, it's all m- like, saying that I like isness of happiness but I don't like isness of fear, it's almost like saying, "Well, I like wooden chairs, but I don't like wooden tables." But when you remember that it's all wood, it doesn't matter.

[01:02:49] It's all just wood. But then from there, too- When you see it as just wood, you see that it can be reshaped into different forms. Mm-hmm. So the isness of fear can be reshaped into isness of, of peace and of happiness.

[01:03:05] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

 

[01:03:06] Zane: But that actually happens completely on its own. That's the effortless flow of energy.

[01:03:11] So we don't need to make that happen. All we have to do is to be with our challenging energies exactly as they are without trying to witness them or trying to hold space for them or trying to do anything with them. Just allow our body to do whatever it wants to do and to be exactly as it wants to be.

[01:03:33] And that's how that energy went away from me. Like, after, say, maybe, like, four, five, or six times of doing that, I could literally kind of see, like, live on display of how that charge would become less and less and less. And by, like, the third or fourth time, there's, like, basically nothing to it. Um, it, it does become...

[01:03:54] Because a, a simple scientific explanation of what's happening there is by being the isness to what's arising, it's like you're signaling to the body that that experience is safe, that energy is okay. You don't have to keep fighting or, or keep constricting. That, that experience is safe. And when your body starts to see that it's safe, it starts to let go.

[01:04:17] It starts to, like, allow things, um, to be as they are. Um, and then there can also... One other, like, last thing that I've noticed with that pattern too is there can also be a trap of, like- And I noticed myself wanting to do this where say after that third or fourth time where the charge was maybe at only 20%, in a strange way, when it was at 20% charge, like the fear wasn't that strong, it made me want to plug into the fear.

[01:04:50] Hmm. Because the fear felt familiar and it was kind of the- Yeah ... sense of like, oh, well this doesn't feel so bad, so I can handle it now. It goes back to like how when I was a kid and I was like faking being afraid of it. Mm. Like, you kind of don't realize, like, and what I saw was like I would have those couple experiences where I may have 20% fear, and I would plug into that, and then I wouldn't meet the energies from the isness.

[01:05:12] I would still cling to a level of like fear to the spiders and like kind of avoiding the spiders. And then the next time that I would go to do it, it would be, uh, like cranked back up again. It would be like 50% because I, I kind of indulged in that familiar low frequency. Like, there's kind of, that's kind of like the, the trap.

[01:05:31] As the invitations are on their, their very tail end out as they're almost about to leave, sometimes that's when we can have the strongest urge to plug back into them. Oh, yeah. '

 

[01:05:41] Kelly: Cause

[01:05:41] Zane: it's like, oh, like this is no big deal. Like, just 20% fear. I can handle this. Like, and it feels familiar. It almost feels good in a weird way.

[01:05:49] It does. I know exactly what

[01:05:50] Kelly: you mean. Yeah, yeah.

[01:05:50] Zane: But yeah.

[01:05:51] Kelly: Yeah.

[01:05:52] Zane: So it's, that's something to be aware of too is like there can be a strong pull to like want to go back into it, but then that can be a trap because then you start to charge it and then it'll blast you. It'll blast you with more, and then you can start to get in that thing where you're right back in the, the very charged state.

[01:06:12] Um, but yeah, that's a very long example, but I'm, I'm not sure if that kind of illustrates it.

 

[01:06:17] Kelly: Totally. Also, just the, like the fact that, I really like what you said, like it's not necessarily a limiting belief. It can be more like a limiting feeling. Like, that really helped me 'cause I think, yeah, I think I keep trying- Yeah

[01:06:31] to like intellectualize things or like-

[01:06:34] Zane: Yeah ...

[01:06:35] Kelly: like, you know, you've kind of, you've mentioned how like we were trying to like deal with things on the level of language, but like there, there's all these other levels that we're not engaging. And thinking of- Yeah ... it as like decline or neutralizing an, a limiting feeling is like really helpful.

[01:06:50] Zane: Yeah. Well, and yeah, that's so key to see. And the, the thing with the limiting beliefs, the people that talk about limiting beliefs or they say that, you know, like, the mind is the root of all the contraction or the limiting beliefs are the root of it, they actually are right. The, the, the limiting beliefs are the root of it.

[01:07:11] But the, the, the, the key distinction, the, the thing that I saw that I try to talk about a lot on my channel, you may have heard me talk about, is that the vast majority of the limiting beliefs and of the, the mental energies, they don't play out on the level of words. They're playing out on this, like, pre-verbal context.

[01:07:33] It's like, like, for me with the spiders, I don't have to tell myself, I don't have to have a thought that's saying, "I'm afraid of spiders," in order for that fear to be there. Mm-hmm. That fear is long there on a very, like, subconscious, like, pre-verbal level. Mm-hmm. Like, the words, when you really look at it, the words don't have much to do with anything.

[01:07:54] Like, I don't... That's one thing I really disagree with David on, is sometimes he'll say, like, language is the root of it.

 

[01:08:00] Kelly: Mm.

[01:08:00] Zane: It's obviously not. Like, it's ob- 'cause whether you use language or you don't use language, that's not what is determining this stuff. Like, it's... Or it's like, like, if you're having an invitation show up, whether you use the word I or you don't use the word I, that's not gonna impact anything.

[01:08:18] It could make it worse if you're kind of, like, personalizing it and, like, um, you know, like, really, like, charging it with this, like, sense of identity or something. But especially for people that are, are more kind of, like, subtle and refined, what's controlling it, it is the mental energies. It is absolutely the limiting beliefs in the mind, but it's not the mind in the form of words.

[01:08:44] It's like the, the, the, the m- mental energy which is prior to words, and that's, like, the context. Like, for me, my case with the, the spiders, the limiting belief or the limiting context there, it's the limiting context which is saying that these energies are not okay. That's the limiting belief, is like, "These energies are not okay.

[01:09:08] They need to be rejected, and so I need to do something to fix them." But all of that context, that can all be there without us ever expressing it in words. Like, you don't have to tell yourself any of that stuff in words for it to be there. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's key to see, because- The, the mind, the mind is the root of all of the emotional problems.

[01:09:34] Like, the, the emotions are, are self-healing. The emotions are... They're just, like, raw energy. They just want to flow and purify and refine and, like, expand. They're just like water that just wants to go and, like, self-cleanse. But what prevents the emotions from flowing is the, the, the mental structures. It's like the mental resistance.

[01:09:56] It's like the mental framing or, like, the, the, the [01:10:00] mental context that we have around the emotions or we have around, um, whatever it is that's going on. Um, and kind of like the, the simple example I give to, to illustrate what I mean by that is, like, right now... And there can be, there can be good contexts which are beneficial or there can be negative contexts which are fear and lack based and which aren't beneficial.

[01:10:25] Um, but an example of, like, a good context that we would both have right now that would be running is we would both be having a context running which is saying something like, uh, we're sitting here. Like, for yours it would be like, "I'm sitting here on my couch. I'm on this Zoom call. I'm talking to this guy named Zane.

[01:10:43] Now he's telling me about context and da, da, da, da, da." And you would have this whole kind of mental framing running which is keeping track of the experience, and that's all there. When you tune into this you can see, like, oh yeah, duh. Like, that's always there. But you don't have to tell yourself in the form of words like, "I'm on a Zoom call.

[01:11:03] I'm on a Zoom call. I'm on a Zoom call." Yeah, yeah. Like, there's a kind of pre-verbal mental framing happening. Um, and that kind of mental framing is great. Like, you want to have mental framing which is just, like, based on, on truth and, and practicality. The only type of, of, like, bad mental framing that you would kind of want to, like, neutralize or like, like, stop fueling is that mental framing which is based on fear or lack.

[01:11:32] Um, and an example of that would be Like the lower mind could, could tag on a condition or a kind of a amendment, like a hijacking to this current context. Like say right now, you could have the exact same context running, but say just one more addition was added to it, which is saying like, "Okay, I'm on the Zoom call, but someone's trying to break into my house right now."

[01:11:59] Like, and if that context is there, even if it's totally false, even if it's totally delusional, you can see how if that context was running and you believed it, like you actually bought into it, you can see how it would change everything beneath it. 'Cause you would start to have emotional reactivity. You would start to have fear or like contraction arising, which would...

[01:12:19] You would start to have a physical response. Like you would start to have adrenaline coming up, you... Or some type of physical reaction, and all of that would be driven by that kind of pre-verbal mental framing. Um, does that kind of make sense?

 

[01:12:35] Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally Yeah. That's really helpful. I, yeah, I've heard you talk about that, the context before, and it, it's really totally tracks, 'cause like I think I had been trying to kind of like rearrange words in my head to some extent.

[01:12:51] Exa- and that- Yeah ...

[01:12:52] Zane: that won't do it. Yeah. And because when you do that, you're doing that within the context of like something's not okay, so I need to rearrange the words, and then the word, like it's- Yeah ... all happening within this invisible context of like- Right ... limitation. Um, and that's the thing, like with the, the, the context, you really don't even need to think about it at all.

[01:13:14] You don't need to dig for it. You don't need to like identify the context and then change it. Mm. Like for my example with the, like the spider thing, I didn't need to like identify the limited context about the spiders. Mm. All I needed to do was to be with the energies tied to that experience exactly as they are-

 

[01:13:35] Kelly: Mm

[01:13:36] Zane: and just neutralizing them, and then that's how it gets transmuted completely effortlessly on its own. It's like I didn't have to reprogram a new context which says, "Spiders are loving and healthy and healing, and I love spiders," or something. But that's actually started to organically subtleize and expand on its own as I've let go of that fear.

[01:13:59] Like now I kind of, I can kind of see a beauty in the bugs. Like I can, you kind of start to have this natural like love for things. But you don't have to reprogram love. Like that will happen on its own. You just have to neutralize the, the, the fear and lack-based energies. And again, life will serve you those.

[01:14:21] Like, like, like you don't have to find those. Mm. You can be guaranteed that whatever limitations you have, they're gonna pop up, in, in all types of ways. Like even the spider thing for me is a perfect example of that. Like on one end, it's like yeah, it was kind of annoying and, and frustrating, uh, to, to deal with the, the spider thing.

[01:14:40] It's like, oh, like I don't wanna go into the basement and change this and do this. But really, by facing that, it, it was, it was deeply liberating, and it ended up supporting me in all kinds of unexpected ways too. That's kind of like the magical, miraculous nature of our infinite nature is- When you do flow through the fear and the energies, you, you kind of start to bring in support and expansion in all kinds of unexpected ways.

[01:15:11] Like, an example of that for me with the spider thing is, like, not only did I transmute my fear of, of spiders and now I can go into the basement and not be bothered by the spiders, I also got a great story. I got a great story that I can share, and it, it refined my clarity on how this whole thing works.

[01:15:29] Like, I got a whole kind of host of, of, of gain from it, and completely spontaneously and effortlessly. Like, I didn't have to, I didn't have to figure it out or, like, come up with an example. I wasn't, like, hunting for a good example or something. Mm. Like, life just led me in terms of a co- it's a combination of whatever challenges we're having, but also where I feel inspired.

[01:15:52] Like, I was having challenges, but I was also feeling inspired, and then that's what led me to more and more expansion and k- insight and, like, like, better conditions. That's, again, that's like the paradox is- Mm ... from the unconditionality you actually get better and better conditions.

 

[01:16:13] Kelly: Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

[01:16:16] And it, it definitely is, uh, yeah, I'm, like, psyched about challenges now.

[01:16:21] Zane: Uh, yes. That's the, that's, and that's one of the most powerful frames you can possibly have. Like, I think one of the most limiting frames is the belief that challenges are a problem or, like, and that, that frame can come from any angle.

[01:16:36] Like, my version of that was with the manifesting, of thinking like, "Well, if I'm having challenges, then I must have messed up, so this is a problem." Mm-hmm. But that's all a limited frame. But, like- The, the, having the context going that says every challenge is an opportunity, like there is, there's something to learn from this, and I don't even need to try to learn it.

[01:16:57] I just need to allow things to be as they are. That frame is, is, is incredible- Mm-hmm ... because it's like y- because you can face any challenge, and then you almost... It, it, it sounds a bit dramatic, but you almost, you almost become like superhuman in a way. Like, it's kind of like Jesus' thing of like to be both 100% man and 100% God.

[01:17:20] It's like to be 100% being, 100% unconditional, but you're also 100% conditional. You're 100% in the relative. You're involved in the relative. You're facing challenges. You're embracing challenges, but you're completely unconditional to them. And that's what unlocks like the, the, the highest human life, the highest human potential because that's like the other side of that is the, the, the frozenness that, that like neo-Advaita and non-dual people, they get frozen into this thing- Yeah

[01:17:54] of like, oh, it doesn't matter, or it's all just the absolute, so none of it matters. Like I, so I'll just never face challenges or like I'll just, I'll just sit alone. And like then when I die, I'll just... Some type of stor- like kind of thing. But that itself can become very like fear and lack and like, like heavy based.

[01:18:15] But from here, this is like, like true liberation. This is like you're still completely involved in all the human stuff. You can do all the normal human things, but you can do it with none of the fear and none of the lack, and you're in contact with your inspiration and your intuition, which will guide you.

[01:18:36] It will guide you in terms of what feels best to what is the best, and that's so much fun. Like, that's like everything just becomes fun. Like e- and like with even the challenges become fun 'cause you no longer think like, "Oh, I'm having a challenge, so I must have messed up." It's more like, "Oh, yes, like this is an element of my energy which I had kind of contracted in the past, and now this isn't a problem that it's coming up.

[01:19:02] It's actually God or the infinite being giving me exactly what I'm ready for. Like it's all happening exactly as it should, exactly at the right time, and it's all opportunity." It's all- Yeah.

 

[01:19:16] Kelly: Yeah. That's great.

[01:19:17] Zane: Yeah.

[01:19:20] Kelly: Well, thank you so much. This was super, super helpful.

[01:19:23] Zane: No problem. That was awesome.

[01:19:24] Kelly: Yeah. I, uh, yeah, I feel very energized.

[01:19:27] Zane: Amazing. Yeah.

[01:19:28] Kelly: Yeah.

[01:19:29] Zane: That's... Yeah.

[01:19:30] Kelly: Cool. Well, thank you so much. I'll keep watching you and be in touch, and yeah.

[01:19:34] Zane: Yeah. Is there, is that everything? Is there

 

[01:19:36] Kelly: anything, um- I, that's all the questions I have now. But I think my next, I'm gonna be looking into your, the TRM- the TRE stuff. It looks cool. I was interested in it a while ago, um, but I ha- I played with it, around with it a little bit, but I think that's gonna be something I play with in the future.

[01:19:52] But yeah.

 

[01:19:53] Zane: T- T- TRE is awesome. TRE is an example of kind of how we can be [01:20:00] led to different movements and actions within the, the lower three koshas, within the relative world, um, which can support our greatest expansion. Like, like, kind of- Like a more s- simple example I'll, I'll give to people sometimes of like, like if we're hungry, the solution to being hungry is to not just sit there and be the isness to hunger until the hunger goes away.

[01:20:26] Mm-hmm. Like, the solution to the hunger is to be the isness to the hunger, but then to follow the inspiration in terms of finding some food to eat. And like, like TRE can kind of be like that. Like TRE- Yeah ... the way I would describe it, TRE is a kind of bottom-up approach of healing, whereas like effortless being and isness and that kind of thing, that's like top-down.

[01:20:49] It's like you're coming- Mm ... at it top-down. And in general, if you have to pick one, pick the top-down. The top-down is like, that's the better one. That's the... I think that's the reason, like, David and R- like Ramana Maharshi and these guys, they're always gonna go with the top-down approach because it's much more subtle and kind of refined.

[01:21:08] But what's even more powerful than only locking yourself to the top-down is being able to do any of it. You can still do bottom-up practices, and the key is, is by following your inspiration and your intuition, you'll be led to the best bottom-up practices which are perfect for you. Mm. And you'll do them in a way which are, are like productive and healthy.

[01:21:32] Um, and like what I mean by that is like, for me with TRE, when I first discovered TRE, uh, it was before I found the David stuff, and it was when I was very much in that kind of context of like, "It's not okay how I feel, and so I need to do something to fix it," like kind of thing. But then the problem with that was is I would keep doing TRE within the confines of that, like, lack-based context.

[01:21:59] It's like- Mm ... I would be like, "Okay, I don't feel good, so I'll do TRE to feel better, and then when I feel better, then I'll be good." Like it's- Yeah, yeah ... that whole thing. But now I still do TRE, but I never do it on the basis of, of like lack or seeking. Mm-hmm. I just do it in the same way I would just eat when I'm hungry.

[01:22:19] Like, it's like when I eat, eating doesn't have to come from, like, lack. It can kind of just come from a place of like, oh, like my body wants to do this right now, so I'll just do it. Like, it's like that kind of thing. Or like, it's even... Like, to me, TRE is honestly, it's just like a bodily function. Like, it- Yeah

[01:22:36] I see it as just like sleeping or eating or going to the bathroom or something. Like, you can just do those things on the basis of just what feels right without it coming from fear and lack. 'Cause when you start to do those things from fear and lack, that's when it's not good. That's when it's like, even if you have a great bottom-up practice, it could give you devastating bad results if you're doing it within, like, a, a, a negative context.

[01:23:04] Um-

 

[01:23:04] Kelly: Yeah ...

[01:23:05] Zane: but from here, you kind of unlock your ability- To follow any of that stuff. Like, you could do breathwork, you could do TRE, you could do frequencies, you could do anything. Mm-hmm. And you also, you'll be perfectly led to what's perfect to you, just on the basis of what feels right.

[01:23:21] Kelly: Right. Yeah.

[01:23:22] Zane: Yeah.

[01:23:23] Kelly: Cool.

[01:23:23] Zane: Yeah.

[01:23:24] Kelly: Amazing. Well, thank you so, so much again. Awesome. That was really, really, really helpful.

[01:23:28] Zane: No problem. Yeah, and-

[01:23:29] Kelly: Hope you have a great day, and yeah, I'll be in touch.

[01:23:32] Zane: Sounds good. And you seem super clear, too. I mean, you seem great, so

[01:23:35] Kelly: like- Cool. ...

[01:23:35] Zane: don't doubt yourself. Yeah.

[01:23:37] Kelly: Okay. You seem- I know. It's, yeah, it's, it's super helpful to just get my junk out and then, yeah.

[01:23:44] Zane: Yeah. Well-

[01:23:45] Kelly: Hear some wisdom back, so thank you.

[01:23:47] Zane: Yeah. Well, amazing. Yeah. Cool. It was so good to meet you.

[01:23:50] Kelly: Yeah, likewise. Thank you so much.

[01:23:51] Zane: Yeah.

[01:23:52] Kelly: Take care. Awesome.

[01:23:53] Zane: Have a great day.

[01:23:53] Kelly: Have a good one. Bye.

[01:23:54] ​